Saluting in "Class B" uniform

[Vicki]

Rip, GSLAC isn't starting a rebellion - we're goin' along to get along on this one. The new uniform was a discussion topic at our WB Staff development weekend a couple of weeks back...

 

Vicki

[FScouter]

7 pages (now 8) of discussion, yes. The answer has been quoted several times so is not elusive. The discussion is war stories, personal opinions in favor or against the answer. Implications that "Council" did or said this or that equates to "the answer".

 

The uniform is defined in several places in the BSA pubs, as is when and how to salute the flag. That, and only that, is what is "official".

[red feather]

Where's that tea pot? There it is,and,yes there is a tempest brewing!

 

Love the quotes aroung official. Kinda points out that what is "official" and what 'works'.

 

If a scout salutes the flag whether or not he is in the "official" uniform that is what we as scouters (imho) are shooting for. He is showing the respect and honor that the flag stands for. Some scouts cannot afford the full uniform and some can. The fact they feel that they should salute the flag and what it stands for is the goal.

 

In an ideal world all scouts and scouters will have the complete uniform as designated by national. That is not always the case. The salute and the recognition is the goal.

 

Recently at summer camp the troop that I serve had to evacuate well after midnight in response to a weather condition that could have been very dangerous. In the process of waking up the scouts, one of our second years, responded on waking up "Class A's or B's?". It really doesn't matter how we get to the goal but that we get there.

 

(The troop and scouts got through the evac and later in true scout fashin and all was well.)

 

The scouts will learn the 'proper' terminology as they progress through scouting. We just have to get the groundwork laid.

 

If the proper uniform is all we have to worry about in the troops that we serve then we should count ourselves very lucky.

 

Hope that toes have not stepped on by this post but the end goal is the target that I shoot for. Sometimes the path is not easy walking but that path is what is there and has to be taken.

 

yis

red feather

 

 

[Vicki]

rf, love the second year's question - beautiful! And having just been at yet another event where the national anthem was sung and seeing how many people don't even put their hand over their heart or remove their hat (not being in any sort of uniform, obviously), I wholeheartedly agree with your post. We are laying the groundwork.

 

Vicki

[Stosh]

The Official US Flag Code explicitly states there are absolutely no consequences for non-compliance to it's statements. In other words, one can fly the flag in a rain storm at night with no spot light on it. One doesn't have to salute it, honor it, or even notice it and it's ok. One doesn't have to take their hat off, nor do they need to say the Pledge out loud. One can salute the flag with 1, 2, 3, or 4 fingers and there is no reprisal. One can have the Flag touch the ground, wear it as a patch on the seat of our pants or cut a hole in it and wear it as a poncho.

 

However, BSA as an organization, has a standard they would like to maintain in regards to the Flag, but again there are no reprisals except what some SM might wish to stomp all over some kid about.

 

In the BSA organization there is no such thing as a class-B uniform, so in fact it does not exist, it shouldn't be assumed to be one. As a Boy Scout can he salute the Flag with the scout salute while wearing a white t-shirt and blue jeans, aka class-B uniform? Sure, why not, no one's going to send him off to prison for it.

 

If our boys are not wearing the FULL BSA field uniform, they are requested to use the non-uniform salute of removing hat and placing it over their heart. Do they always comply? Nope, but then they don't comply about a lot of other things as well. :^(

 

Stosh

[FScouter]

The flag code contains no penalties for non-compliance, but that doesn't mean violations are "OK". A Scout obeys the laws of his community and his country. He doesn't first check to see if there are penalties for violation.

[Pack212Scouter]

JBlake, it is very true that the flag code carries no penalty. By the same token, me walking up to you an saying that you are a #@%^@$^ (insert your despised word here) also carries no LEGAL penalty. But we teach our children not to do that, at least I hope that you do, as proper manners and part of being a respectful citizen.

 

Being a Scout is about respect for God, family, country, community, and environment. We teach these things to raise up good citizens, and each part, INCLUDING flag etiquete is part of it. Are they or we penalized for not following the flag code? No. But we still should respect the flag and treat it as prescribed.

 

(This message has been edited by pack212scouter)

[Gold Winger]

"In the BSA organization there is no such thing as a class-B uniform, so in fact it does not exist, it shouldn't be assumed to be one. "

 

There may not be a Class B" but there is an "activity uniform" which is still a uniform and the salute should still be rendered when in such uniform.

 

 

[Stosh]

Whoa! At ease, gentlemen, it's time to loosen one's shorts. If one were to read the post and quit assuming some sinister motive, they would see: "The Official US Flag Code explicitly states there are absolutely no consequences for non-compliance to its statements." Does this statement indicate my personal opinion on it? As stated on other threads, when one goes hunting to trash someone, sometimes they have to make up stuff that just isn't there to do so. Obviously this seems to be the case here.

 

Just so those out there that are all upset about this, they can sleep easy tonight because I have said on more than one occasion to my boys that the flag ceremonies they perform are the most important thing they will do that day. Are we comforted now? Ok? Good, let's go on with the other problem that speaks more directly to the thread.

 

If one were to go to the official on-line catalog of National BSA one will find that there are inspection sheets available that determine, in somewhat clear wording what the acceptable uniform of the BSA is comprised of. It has shirts, shorts, pants, socks, etc. The BSA catalog then goes so far as to sell these items under the category entitled UNIFORMS. Without too much interpretation on my part, I would find it somewhat within the boundaries of basic logic to assume that these items are to be viewed by the membership of BSA as the official uniform.

 

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/default.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=UNIFORMS&C3=USHIRTS&C4=&LV=3

 

Then under a different section entitled APPAREL they list action shirts.

 

http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/default.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&C2=APPAREL&C3=ASHIRTS&C4=&LV=3

 

I would under normal logic conclude that if the action shirts were to be viewed as uniforms they would place them under the uniform section.

 

"Official Uniforms

Clause 2. The official uniforms authorized as evidence of official relationship to the Boy Scouts of America shall be those approved by action of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America from time to time, as illustrated and correctly described in the handbooks, catalogs, and other official publications of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

With this brief by explicit research one can easily conclude that the use of Class-B uniforms is not sanctioned by BSA and any variations from the official uniform is unacceptable. Also the categorizations in the official catalog would show that the action shirt is not an official uniform and should not be promoted as such.

 

If one were to also read pages 12-13 of the BS Handbook 11th Edition, it explicitly states what the official uniform is and in a separate paragraph indicates that scouts may wear troop or camp t-shirts while wearing official pants or shorts. This mixing of non-official apparel with official uniform parts is allowed but does not mean this is in anyway an official uniform. I love the way they say non-uniform t-shirts can be worn with official pants/shorts, but deftly sidestep the issue of wearning gym shorts with official shirts. Now there's a PC statement/omission if I ever saw one.

 

So, going back to the original thread, there is no such thing as a Class-B uniform, whether it be a troop t-shirt or BSA action shirt. Saluting using the scout salute should be done while in full official uniform only. When not in official uniform, it is proper to use the civilian (non-uniformed) "salute" of removing one's hat and placing one's hand over one's heart. This gesture is equally sincere and respectful as a salute while in official uniform. To educate one's youth that it is appropriate to salute the flag while wearing their "Class-B" uniforms may in fact be a breach of both the US Flag Code as well as BSA policy. Fortunately for all involved, there is no penalty for either, but if one wishes to do it "according to Hoyle", there is a little research and education that needs to take place.

 

I surely hope that the appropriate references will assist in helping the readers understand that this is not my personal opinion, but just collected research from official BSA publications.

 

Stosh

(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Gold Winger]

Gotta love how people spin things. "Can't salute in the activity uniform because it isn't official."

 

Let's see . . . BSA recognizes the activity uniform as a uniform. Also, a BSA publication has stated that a Scout may or should salute the uniform whilst wearing the activity uniform.

 

What is the activity uniform? By the book it is Scout shorts or pants, a scouting shirt and a Scout socks. However, if we treat a Scout in a tan shirt and blue jeans as being in uniform, we must extend that to the activity uniform as say as long as the shirt is a troop shirt or roughly Scouting related it is the activity uniform. Hence just about anything that you wear at summer camp is the activity uniform.

 

I guess that we've reached the point to say, "your opinion no longer matters, we have the BSA's opinion and theirs is the one that counts."

 

 

 

[Stosh]

It might be helpful if one could provide where in BSA publications the existance of any such "activity uniforms". Seriously, I have looked for it, but find no such definition. Until such is provided, it might be well to promote what BSA does say is the official uniform. I for one could care less what others may define as a uniform. If one wishes to salute while wearing swim trunks with the BSA mile swim patch on it, go for it. If a boy wears the BSA shorts with a patrol t-shirt, does that count, how about a white shirt, surely that is no different than wearing an official shirt with blue jeans. Half a uniform is half a uniform whether it be the top or bottom.

 

Until BSA states differently, I'm going to teach my boys what the BSA policy states:

 

"Official Uniforms

Clause 2. The official uniforms authorized as evidence of official relationship to the Boy Scouts of America shall be those approved by action of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America from time to time, as illustrated and correctly described in the handbooks, catalogs, and other official publications of the Boy Scouts of America."

 

Others may do as they wish.

 

Stosh

 

 

 

[Gold Winger]

Try looking in the handbook. Try the catalog . . . here's the description of the red knit shirt from ScoutStuff.org,

 

"Here's a Scouting uniform option that's comfortable during any activity. This cool, lightweight shirt is a soft 50/50 cotton/polyester blend."

 

Hmmmm . . . looks like they are calling it a uniform. So we have BSA catalog calling the red shirt a "uniform." In the uniform section of the handbook it says that Scouts may wear troop or camp t-shirts with Scout pants. And a BSA magazine says that you may salute while wearing the less formal activity uniform.

 

Is that enough for you? Probably not.

[John-in-KC]

Is this horse dead yet?

 

GW has it right.

 

[Stosh]

As I mentioned before, there is no penalty for infractions in the US Flag Code, nor is there a penalty for infractions and/or reinterpretations of BSA policy, so knock yourselves out doing it any which way one wishes. I really have no vested interest in this thread other than someone asked the question and I provided BSA documentation on the issue. Until I hear differently, I'll use the existing publications provided by BSA to teach my boys. Others can do as they wish.

 

Stosh

[Gold Winger]

Thank you John.

 

The problem, Jblake, is that you aren't using the publications. You're reading small parts and making guesses, much like the guy who thought that "non leadership" position patches went on the right sleeve. Oddly enough, like you, he didn't want to accept the word of anyone else. Go figure.