Saluting in "Class B" uniform

[todd]

wow! Alot of talk about something i never really gave a thought to.

so anyway here is my question then.

started a new venturing crew. with most of the crew and adults we are involved in multiple unit ie. pack, troop, and crew. at aproximatly $65 a pop for the "official field uniform" we agreed it is impossible to make these parents , myself, and others, pay for another uniform. we have one a step above the "t-shirt" and had polo type shirts embrordered and require tan dress slacks as our uniform for the crew. does this mean we cannot salute the flag? it is in my opinion that some people are to uptight about this subject. i am not going to disbandon the crew because we cannot afford uniforms. i think the progam that is for the boys/girls is a little more important than we have to have a bsa official uniform to participate. I am sure that when things started in 1910 it was the program that was important. don't loose touch with why we adults are involved. We are not the uniform police.

 

just wandering. should I not recharter the crew because some people here say i cant salute my flag in what we consider our uniform.

 

p.s. just to agravate some of you, yes, I do have the crew in our polo shirts participate in the guard with the Troop "in class "a" and the cubs in Class "a" when we have a combined activity.

[todd]

wow! Alot of talk about something i never really gave a thought to.

so anyway here is my question then.

started a new venturing crew. with most of the crew and adults we are involved in multiple unit ie. pack, troop, and crew. at aproximatly $65 a pop for the "official field uniform" we agreed it is impossible to make these parents , myself, and others, pay for another uniform. we have one a step above the "t-shirt" and had polo type shirts embrordered and require tan dress slacks as our uniform for the crew. does this mean we cannot salute the flag? it is in my opinion that some people are to uptight about this subject. i am not going to disbandon the crew because we cannot afford uniforms. i think the progam that is for the boys/girls is a little more important than we have to have a bsa official uniform to participate. I am sure that when things started in 1910 it was the program that was important. don't loose touch with why we adults are involved. We are not the uniform police.

 

just wandering. should I not recharter the crew because some people here say i cant salute my flag in what we consider our uniform.

 

p.s. just to agravate some of you, yes, I do have the crew in our polo shirts participate in the guard with the Troop "in class "a" and the cubs in Class "a" when we have a combined activity.

[Sylvar]

Todd,

It is my understanding that Venturing Crews get to pick their uniform. Salute away!

 

Sylvar

[spl409]

As a SPL I conduct alot of flag presentations and raisings. The way I was taught to do it ( by a former Marine ) was as follows:

 

Flag Presentation:

Color Gaurd Salutes When the "Unit, Salute" command is given.

After "Post the colors" the dlag bearer(s) step back and salute.

 

Flag Raising:

Color Gaurd takes one step back from the flag and salutes in unison ONLY AFTER the flag is secured.

 

As for salutein in "class B":

The hand over the heart way is the only way I've ever seen it done.

 

 

 

[Vigil-Hiker]

First of all let's get where this class A and Clas B uniform stuff originated.

 

Boy Scouts evolved from military scouting as Baden Powell experienced. Uniforms were based off of army uniforms. Class A is dress uniform in military. Class B is field dress as in dig into the trenches. So the terms were adapted unofficially into Scouting.

 

Class A is the the Official Scout Uniform with the shirts for ranks, Council Strip, etc. Class B is usually regulation pants/shorts with official activity shirt, or other Scouting t-shirt.

 

Class A should always salute "military style". Right hand showing appropriate scout sign by right eye brow or right-side of brim if wearing a hat.

 

I have seen cases where Class B using official activity shirt give same salute (like camp color guard at summer camp), but Class B should be right hand over the heart.

 

[FScouter]

"So the terms were adapted unofficially into Scouting."

Unofficial Scouting is an oxymoron.

[Bolo]

I once had an SM tell me his troop had Class A, B, C and D uniforms.

He must have thought I was an oxymoron!

[acco40]

I'll try to be even more blunt than my first post on page 1.

 

The BSA determines what constitutes a uniform wrt the BSA - not individual troops (i.e a troop may not state that in our unit we don't require Scout pants).

 

A uniform is not required to be a Scout.

 

When in uniform (BSA uniform) one should salute the flag.

 

Their is an activity uniform and a field uniform recognized/defined by the BSA.

 

All the above are straight facts. The following is my opinion:

 

The BSA tries very hard not to be perceived as quasi-military (we have many BSA troops in foreign countries - think about it!) or as an endorser of hunting.

[Hunt]

"The BSA determines what constitutes a uniform wrt the BSA - not individual troops (i.e a troop may not state that in our unit we don't require Scout pants)."

 

I guess this is a fact, in a sense. But I have to quibble with the statement that a unit "may not" modify the requirements.

Do units in fact make such decisions? Yes.

Are those units disciplined in any way by BSA? Not that I've ever heard.

Do I think units should wear full uniforms? Yes.

Do I think they are denying the boys the promise of Scouting if they don't wear full uniforms? Not really, unless it's one of a number of deviations from the program.

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Here is another fact:

 

The BSA uniform is one of the eight Methods of the Scouting program and each Method helps to lead a Scout to the three Aims.

 

If a unit decides to deviate from anyone of the Eight Methods of Scouting, then they are pointing the Scout away from the intended destination.

 

Some think that there are alternatives to the eight Methods but what they find is that they are usually a few degrees off. Some think that there are modifications to the eight Methods that are practical and not so complicated but what they find is that the BSA has already been over most of those routes before and has counted them out for many good reasons.

 

Now, can a Scout reach the three Aims of Scouting and not wear a pair of Scout pants? If I am sitting on an Eagle BOR and a Scout is wearing a pair of jeans, I am going to ask questions of that young man that I would not ask of one that is wearing Scout pants. I would ask those questions because I would have evidence that something is missing and I would want to know more.

 

Let's take another Method and apply the same test. A Troop decides that the Outdoor program should only be done when the weather is not too hot or too cold or rainy. Few would ever know how that unit approached the Outdoor Method until you begin to talk to one of the Scouts from that unit. The conclusion that one might make is the unit has missed the point of Scouting altogether.

 

How about if a unit decided that Leadership was not necessary and all they did was work on Merit Badges at every meeting? How about the unit that decides that some of the advancement requirements are unnecessary and that the Scouts would only do the easy parts? What about the unit that lets the SM run everything because he runs a good show and the boys always make such a mess of the leadership? (* I use these examples because I have witnessed these modifications in actual units while being a UC.)

 

It is not so much a matter of someone being compulsive about rule keeping as honestly attempting to assist Scouts in achieving the Aims of the BSA program. We want young men to have good character, be physically fit, and to be good citizens. We are taught the eight Methods or how to do the Scouting program properly but the reasons are generally not as clear. You can still be confident that all of the Methods have been tested and tried over many years. The alternatives have been tried long before any of us were ever in the program and those generally did not measure up to the standard that the BSA has found to effective. Their request is not to follow an arbitrary set of standards but ones that have been shown to be valid and reliable.

 

FB

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

I forgot to mention that I detest the Scout pants.

FB

[Hunt]

"If a unit decides to deviate from anyone of the Eight Methods of Scouting, then they are pointing the Scout away from the intended destination."

 

I understand this argument, but I just find it a little overblown when the method we're talking about is the uniform--and especially if we're just talking about the pants. I simply am not persuaded that all 8 methods are created equal. That's why I've never been impressed by the argument that goes: "How can you say no uniform pants? What if you said no outdoor adventure?" It seems to me that most people can distinguish a difference in degree here. I suppose one might think that dispensing with scout pants is the first step down a slippery slope that will ultimately turn the troop into something that bears no resemblance to a scouting unit--but I don't find that all that persuasive, either.

Let me again make a distinction between no uniform and no uniform pants. If boys object to the uniform in general, it's the shirt they won't want to wear--it's the thing they may think is "dorky." The pants are just a pair of green pants. What they don't like about the pants is that they are uncomfortable and impractical. In my view, the current pants actually hinder the delivery of the uniform method.

Additional note: Do boys, even from troops where the uniform is not typically worn fully, show up for an Eagle Board in blue jeans? My experience is that even boys who are very resistant to uniforms will wear them on certain occasions--for example, on Scout Sunday a boy I've never seen in scout pants showed up with the whole kit, including belt and socks.

Here's a practical thought for those of us who may want the boys to wear more complete uniforms, but want to persuade them to do so without setting troop rules: find opportunities to say, "Everyone please wear full uniforms next week, because...." and fill in the reason with something concrete. For example, it might be because "the OA reps will be here" "we're expecting Webelos to visit" etc. Do that ofen enough--and the reasons are limited only by your creativity--and they may get into the habit, or at least ask themselves, "Hmmm, was there some reason I was supposed to wear full uniform this week? Better put it on."

[FScouter]

It makes no difference at all whether the 8 methods are created equal. Even if BSA declared that the uniform was at the bottom of the list, how does that equate to not wearing it? How does street clothes make better Scouts? What Scouting purpose do we accomplish by skipping the uniform method? How does ditching the uniform help us better achieve the aims of Scouting?

 

Telling boys to wear a uniform on specified occasions is a not-so-subtle statement that street clothes are good enough the rest of the time. What Scouting purpose is served by telling boys the uniform is not important except for specified occasions?

 

By the way, I have NEVER heard a boy say that Scout pants are uncomfortable or impractical. Dorky yes, but never uncomfortable. That is strictly an adult excuse. In fact, other than dorky, all the myriad uniform excuses are made up by adults in attempts justify their personal likes and dislikes.

 

Lastly, it is not our position as adult leaders to decide that the uniform hinders Scouting. We have a national organization that makes those kinds of decisions. Our responsibility is to achieve the aims of Scouting through the methods of Scouting, including the uniform method.

 

[baldingeagle]

my first post so be nice

 

The roll of the color guard is to protect the flag. In theory they must be atentive and vigelent (i know sometimes thats asking alot) but they cant do either if they salute.

 

Many troops have diferent terms for types of uniforms in many cases young, small, or economical chalenged troops are forced to choose between spending money on a uniform or spending money on program (equipment, transportation, camping fees, food ect.) the scouts in my troop have agreed on 3 different acceptable uniforms

 

1 "everything you have" including meritbadge sash and troop bolo

2 shirt and official pants if you have them

3 troop t shirt or camp shirt

 

The way I've always explained it to leaders and scouts is the same as it was explained to me in the military -- whatever has been designated as the acceptable uniform for the day/event is proper uniform and if you are in that "uniform" you act accordingly examples:

summer camp staff members wear polo shirts as their uniform

scouts and scouters partisipating in work weekends usualy dont wear a full uniform while moveing dirt and hauling railroad ties.

 

 

John

 

 

 

[proudscout]

heres an answer to your questions

 

1. no scouts should not salute in the "class B" uniform, you should place hand over heart.

 

2. No colour guard members DO NOT say anything including the Pledge, only person who can speak is the national flag carreir. member should just stand at attention, and when the colour guard is called to "Present arms" thats when members salute.

 

PEACE