Appropriateness of Scouter wearing patches earned as a Youth.

[dsteele]

5 words:

 

I stand by my friend, Eamonn.

 

I'm not sure Eamonn is uglier than someone who doesnt post here anymore I haven't met Eamonn face-to-face yet. But I can assure you they are two different people.

 

Unc. Of course, of the three of us, I'm the best looking

 

UG (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[scoutldr]

If there are "unit commissioners who don't do their jobs", then the District Commissioner is not doing his job. If the DC is not doing his job and there are "no District activities" then the District Chairman and District Committee are not doing their jobs. THe solution is to get your CORs to do their jobs, attend Dist Comm meetings and vote for change. THey are the only ones who can get the Council Executive Board off the dime. Your only recourse is to deliver the promise as best you can at the unit level. Not having an FOS presentation is not a decision that the unit leader can make...that's for the CO to decide, and they need to demand an accounting of the funds...if there is no unit support in the form of active UCs, district activities, no camp, etc, then where is the money going??? A council is not in the business of merely providing steady paychecks for the pros.

[FScouter]

No, no, no, you've got it all wrong. The root of all these problems is those dang knots! Get that fruit salad off the shirts and all will be rosy and gay! Surely the SE will understand this and solvee all the council ills by immediately initiating a knot removal program.

[Rip Van Scouter]

ROFL!

 

I am glad you have a good sense of humor FScouter, although some might not have seen that you had your tongue firmly planted in your cheek when you posted that! You might just start another flame war with people who thought you were making a serious suggestion instead of being sarcastic.

 

Of course the ills in Backpacker's council must go way beyond the argument over wearing too many knots. I think it is the knotheads themselves who are the issue. Focusing on the knots is just inciting to riot.

 

I am sorry to see my simple inquiry degenerate into such a ludicrous, and illogically-based argument. I think Backpacker's complaints should be taken up in another forum other than Uniforms. I never intended this thread to be a discussion of whether or knot.....

 

Sorry I couldn't help that one!

 

I think I will go cause trouble on another forum and ask about teaching Scouts close-order drill and marching! (sans weapons, of course!)

[Eamonn]

Any Scout Executive that embarked on a knot removal program should and hopefully end up in hot water.

Leadership Training Committee Guide #34169E:

"The leadership training recognition plan is intended to honor demonstrated performance and tenure of trained leaders in all areas of the Scouting program directly involving units. Leaders interested in collecting recognitions for the sake of the emblem only should be counseled as to the true intent of the plan."

Are there "Knot Collecting Leaders" out there?

I'm sure that there are. All the training awards have requirements that entail: Tenure, Training, and performance. Council and District Training Committees promote training and the use of the Progress Record. You can't use the tenure from one award toward another. So it would take seven years to earn all the Cub Scout knots. I haven't added up the time it would take to earn the Boy Scout Training Knots or the Venturing Knots. How many District Award of Merit and Silver Beavers that can be awarded is governed by the size of the District or the size of the Council. A District the size in which I serve can award two Awards of Merit a year and our Council can award four Silver Beavers. We have several hundred volunteers in the District and I'm guessing that we have more than a thousand in the Council. These awards are held in very high esteem and the recipient's are selected with great care.We as a district have awarded the District Award of Merit to non-uniformed members of the District. One of this years recipients is the District Community FOS Chair.

Sure you can buy a knot!! I don't know anyone foolish enough to donate $1,000 just so they can wear a tiny piece of cloth. Nearly all of our Executive Board have donated the $1,000 needed for a James E.West, most of these guys don't own a uniform. Still National has said that along with the certificate comes a knot.

There are a lot of other non training knots, that people can earn. All have requirements that need to be met. Some are not awarded by the Council (They might need Council Approval) but they are awarded by National. How could a SE remove something that he didn't award in the first place?

I think what we have now works. Each individual can choose if he wants to wear the knots or not wear them, he or she can choose to wear all the knots that he or she is entitled to wear or just select the knots that he or she feels are important to him or her.

As I posted in another thread I have different shirts with some knots, some with no knots and a couple with all of them. With the exception of one knot that is the wrong way I have kept within the guidelines laid down in the insignia guide.

Some really good leaders have their red jacket covered in temporary patches, I have to laugh when these same leaders talk about people who wear knots.

Hopefully we are all doing what we do at what ever level we serve in order to help the BSA achieve the vision and mission of the BSA. While I'm all for proper and correct uniforming, in the grand scheme of things knots and beads are way down on my list. I do use them to promote training and express gratitude to people who have done a good job serving the District and the Council.

Eamonn.

 

[Twocubdad]

A couple points back on the original topic. First of all someone mentioned that Eagle, Religious Emblems and heroism awards are the only youth awards which can be worn as an adult. There is also an adult knot for the Arrow of Light. And yes, I have one on my uniform.

 

Secondly, El Generalisimo may very well have earned more than the current 36 knots. There are a number of knots that have been retired but may still be worn if they were previously earned. Tiger Cub Coach is one that comes to mind.

 

Thirdly, and most importantly, I don't honestly believe -- or perhaps I should say I can't comprehend -- that anyone is involved in Scouting solely for the knots. I've been back in Scouting five years since my son joined and I've earned four knots. Admittedly, the three den leader awards are fairly easy to earn. But still, they required four years of commitment to the program and training. If all someone is looking for is those knots, they're working awfully hard for scant return. The fourth knot I've earned is the District Award of Merit. In our district I will tell you flat-out that the DAM recipients put in a great deal of work. I would take a special kind of mental illness only be in it for the awards.

 

I proudly wear all the knots I've earned as a Scout and a leader. I've written before about the boys who ask about the patches and give me an opportunity to pitch some part of the program. None of us truely know the motivations of the others. No question that my number one motivation is to make sure that my own two sons have a good program to attend. I also have a deep sense of obligation to the leaders who provided a great Scouting program for me. And yes, I enjoy earning the awards as an adult just as much as I enjoyed earning ranks and merit badges as a Scout.

 

Don't like the look of all the fruit salad? Great! Don't wear them. But if someone else is proud to wear theirs, please keep you condecention to youself.

[Backpacker]

Eamonn

 

You are entitled to your own opinion as am I. As far as your nasty tone all I can say is that with someone who doesnt post here anymore gone you can now play bad cop all you want. As far as being wrong I can show you several times where your comments were "Spot Off". I will not lower myself to your level of accusations when you do not even understand the situation or circumstances. Have a Merry Christmas Eamonn!! (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Eamonn]

Backpacker,

I will gladly admit that there have been times when I have been wrong. I like to think that when this has been pointed out to me that I have stood up and admitted it.

Any way, thank you for your kind wishes,I do intend to have a very merry Christmas and I wish you and yours the same.

Eamonn.

[NYScoutmaster]

I wear my Eagle Scout patch and the square knot I am one of the Scoutmaster of my Troop and I have been An Adult leader for 5 years now. This is what i believe If you earned the award you have the right to wear it and it shouldn't matter how old you are. So i wear my Eagle Scout Patch and sometimes people tell me your uniform is wrong you know what i tell them. why don't you earn eagle scout then tell me to take it off after that the leave me alone :-)

[Region 7 Voyageur]

NYScoutmaster

 

If I understand your post correctly you wear the Eagle rank patch on your assistant scoutmaster uniform, and your reason is because you earned it?

 

Do you wear your Bobcat patch and any Webelos activity pins too?

 

[FScouter]

Badges of rank are for boys. We have a man in our district that wears his old Eagle badge. He insists he can wear it, and defiantly does so. Behind his back people comment about how silly it looks for a grown man to be wearing a boy rank patch.

[Rip Van Scouter]

On adult wear of the Eagle cloth patch, the insignia quide is quite clear: Adults wear the Eagle square knot, not the patch, however the actual Eagle MEDAL may be worn "on formal Eagle occasions". I would take that to mean an Eagle COH, NESA events, etc. Whether that would include other formal events, like district and council recognition dinners, etc., would be open to interpretation.

 

Here is the actual text:

 

Eagle rank. cloth, silver, white, and

blue on red, No. 00489, Boy Scout, left

pocket. Adults wear square knot, No.

05011.

 

Eagle Award. silver medal suspended

from scroll, No. 00135; sterling silver,

No. 00112; Boy Scout. Adults wear only

on formal Eagle occasions.

 

Eagle Palm. Bronze, No. 00335; Gold, No.

00336; Silver, No. 00337; Boy Scout and

Scouter, worn only on the Eagle Award

ribbon or Eagle square knot. You may wear

only the proper combination of Palms for

the number of merit badges you earn

beyond Eagle. The Bronze Palm represents

five merit badges; Gold, 10; and Silver, 15.

For example, if you earn 10 merit badges

and two Palms, you would wear only the

Gold Palm. If you earn 20 merit badges and

four Palms, you would wear a Silver and a

Bronze Palm.

 

Eagle. metal miniature, No. 00124;

sterling silver, No. 00024; tie tack,

sterling silver, No. 00025. Boy Scout or

his mother, civilian wear.

 

Eagle square knot. cloth, red, white, and

blue on tan, No. 05011, Scouter, above left

pocket. Boy Scouts wear Eagle rank, No.

00489.

 

 

[Lord Spade]

-This is an important question that I need answered. I have read in different sources that a scout can wear the Eagle rank badge till he is 21, and other sources I have read that he has to take it off at 18. We have several 18 year old Eagle scouts (including myself) in our Troop that are confused whether or not we have to take off the Eagle Rank Badge now or at 21? We are currently enrolled in the Venture program, but we are not a lone Venture Crew, we are a Venture Patrol within our Troop's Charter.

 

-Is it appropiate for adults and scouts to wear our scout award medals during formal occasions such as Troop Court of Honors, Eagle Court of Honors, and other such activities that require formal scout attire??? These questions have caused alot of contriversey among certain Troop members, I would appreciate it if someone could answer them. I have searched several sources (namely Scout Handbook, proper Scout Uniform attire websites and so forth).

[Lord Spade]

-Oh dang! I didn't read the rest of the topic till too late. So what's the clear answer on this?! What defines an adult scout and a youth scout, 18 or 21? I know 18 year olds can become Assistant Scoutmastersm but a boy can be a Venture Scout till he is 21...??? When is it not appropiate to wear the Eagle Rank Badge (or any Rank patch for that matter)??? 18 or 21?

[OldGreyEagle]

Wow, so much to answer and a few questions. First of all there are Venturing Crews, which as separate and distinct BSA units, and then there are Venture Patrols, which are part of a Boy Scout Troop. If you aren't a member of a Venturing Crew. then I am not sure what Venture program you speak of, but back to your quesitons.

 

On the Boy Scout uniform, the eagle patch comes off and the eagle square knot goes on when the scout turns 18, for Venturing Crew members, (wears the green shirt)(well maybe) the eagle rank patch may be left on till 21