Venturing and Merit badges

[OldGreyEagle]

I just got Venturing training, and was told that MALE venturing crew members can earn merit badges and Eagle but the girls can't. Now, I am not even gonna suggest the ladies should earn Eagle or merit badges, but does anyone think this should be allowed? A male and female crew member both do the same things and one can get recognition in form of a merit badge and the other cant? I thought the purpose of Venturing was to present a Co-Ed program with common goals. Why mess it up with male only awards? Let the crew strive towards Ranger, Silver and Gold. Let Boy Scouts in Boy Scout troops earn merit badges. All of our male crew membes are Boy Scouts and I hope they all make eagle, but as boy scouts, not venturers... and should this be in the political forum? Did I get this right? I am anxious to see what the opinions are

[jmcquillan]

I'm not really all that up to speed on the Venturing program, but if what you say is true, I share you thoughts.

 

Question: Is this a similar situation to the old Explorer program situation? Could male explorers earn merit badges and Eagle, but not the female participants?

 

It seems ridiculous to attempt to hold on to a connection to a Boy Scout Troop for boys through the Venturing program, if the girls are not allowed the same access. It's basically telling the girls that they can only participate in certain things, and then they can sit and watch the boys earn recognition that they can't. Why not just keep them totoally separate and avoid any question? If a boy wants to participate in both programs, fine, let him register in both, separately. That way, the boys and girls in the Venturing program are really working toward common goals on a level playing field. Seems like a no-brainer...huh?

 

[OldGreyEagle]

This is one time when I want to be wrong, that I heard wrong or the Presenter was confused, but yes, as I understood it, the boys can make Eagle and the girls get to be cheerleaders on the sidelines, and if this is like old "explorers", they were wrong too.

[Stan Riddle]

OGE, I understand your concerns. However, can girls also be affiliated with their GSA Troops? If so, wouldn't they be able to earn Girl Scouting awards, and the Boy Scouts not be able to? If this is the case, wouldn't it "level the playing field"?

 

I thought earning Merit Badges and Eagle was because the boys could carry dual affiliation, so they wouldn't be earning them as Ventureres, but as Boy Scouts. They certainly can't earn them if they're over 18, Venturing or not.

[jmcquillan]

Stan,

 

I'm not for having girls join the Scouts, never have been. But, if Scouting is going to offer a program that is touted as being co-ed, wouldn't it make sense, at least for appearance sake, that the program be truly co-ed, all the way? The way it appears, if the information OGE was given is correct, is that the program is set up for the guys to participate in "all the way" with everything available to them, and the girls can participate, but only up to a point. That's not a level playing field. As for the GSA affiliation, I don't feel that makes muster here if the above is true. The program should probably be totally separate from the Troops, that way, the guys get to complete BSA advancement (MB's & Eagle) through the troop environment (dual affiliation); the girls could, by affiliation with the GSA, earn all their GSA advancement, and both could, together, earn Venturing advancement recognition. There's an appearance thing here, IMHO, that smacks of inequality. I think total separation would look and feel better.

 

[eisely]

I too speak from relative ignorance as regards the venturing program. However, if girls are going to be admitted to the program, they ought to be fully admitted to the program.

 

A similar contradiction exists as regards Order of the Arrow eligibility. We now have female adult volunteers regularly elected to the OA. However, for a youth member of scouting to be elected to OA, they must have earned the rank of First Class. Since the girls cannot do rank advancement at all, they might meet all the other requirements, in fact be better scouts and more deserving, but they are not eligible because of what at that point seems to be a technicality. Where is the justice in that?

[KL Wisconsin]

The Venturing program has all kinds of inequalities and inconsistencies. I happen to be a trained advisor for Venturing and am an advisor to a Sea Scout Ship. Sea Scouting is a branch of Venturing, if you read one brochure, with separate rank/awards with a nautical orientation. But now our Venturer Sea Scouts must be dual registered within Venturing in order for them to earn any of the Ranger, Silver or Gold awards. So they have to be members of Crew 123 as well as Ship 123 if they would like to earn Venturing awards. And to make the silliness even dumber, Crew 123 and Ship 123 are not allowed to have identical membership. Venturing scouts were not allowed to go to National Jamboree as Venturers, thus no female US Scouts at National Jamboree, but foreign scouts can send female youth.

 

Venturing requirements refer to Merit badge requirements as their criteria for base level proficiencies toward completing award ranks, but as pointed out before, females cannot earn the badges.

 

The program is supposed to be youth driven, with "Leaders" a la Scouts replaced with "Advisors" who take a much more backseat advisory position. But much of the training material that national put out uses the term Leader instead of Advisor. There is a Venturing Leader Training Award. I am looking at the Venturing Leader Progress Record which records all my training. So they can't even get that straight, are we the leaders or the advisors??

 

And though in the old Explorer program there was a well developed Youth Leadership organization with the youth having regional meetings, etc, it seems to have been completely allowed to die under the new Venturing banner. The Venturing logo is a mountain, and I'm afraid it well symbolizes they have a mountain of thinking to do before this program is really well defined.

[jmcquillan]

Here's an idea. How about we let this thread go for a few more days to see what other questions and concerns arise, and then get someone to forward the whole darn thing to the Lords of Scouting in Texas. I wonder if they ever hear from the serfs and philistines in the field?

 

[eisely]

I may be just a serf, but I object to being called a Phillistine!!

[jmcquillan]

eisely,

 

Phil-is-tine: a person who is lacking in, or smugly indifferent to culture, aesthetic refinement, etc., or is contentedly commonplace in ideas and tastes.

 

No comment on the character of the characters inhabitting this forum...not at all. Just my own personal take on how I think the Lords in Texas sometimes view us out here in the netherlands of Scouting. I hear a lot about units and people being involved in hatching many of these "new" ideas that suddenly become policy, but have yet to meet anyone who actually participated. It gives me pause, and I wonder just where the movers and shakers in Texas get these ill-defined ideas. I wonder how well these ideas were worked in the field prior to implementation. It would seem to me that many of the concerns raised here would have been gone over already, but the concerns remain. And we're only the volunteers!! We don't even get paid to review this stuff and comment. But here we are, just volunteers, questioning the wisdom of the directives from above. I think, sometimes, that those dictating from on high have little regard for our opinions and concerns, and think of us as contentedly commonplace in our ideas and tastes, and our acceptance of what is placed before us.

 

That's all! :-)

[OldGreyEagle]

Well, at least I know I am not crazy. Well, at least this dosent prove it...

 

I checked online and yes indeed A male venturer can earm boy scout ranks and merit badges but a girl cannot. And while yes the girls can earn Girl Scout awards, my issue is the same acheivement done in the same place deserves the same recognition. I am not aware of Venturing Crew taking on a Girl Scout award's requirements as an activity but I guess it could happen.

 

What really got this rolling was a discussion I had with Crew members. One of out male members just turned 18, so he went to register to vote and register for selective service. He wanted to know why the girls didnt have to as well. It lead to a discussion of the rights and responsibilities of a citizen. The one singular emphasis was both boys and girls wanted to be equal. In the end, the girls accepted that they should be registering for Selective Sevice (not necessarily combat, we will leave that for another day)since that would approach equality.

 

And how do I explain in this group the Boys can and the girls cant?

[jmcquillan]

LONG POST WARNING....sorry...

 

Explaining this to the kids in your unit shouldn't be too much of a problem if you approach it from the same point of view that you've expressed here. It's a situation that exists, you do not at all agree with it, but it is what it is...not fair, but it is what it is.

 

Consider one of the merit badges that is part of the concern here...Citizenship in the Nation. When a person, or group of people find a law that they do not agree with, what is the process for change? That same process could be used here as an outlet for their feelings, reinforcement of the concept, and, who knows, perhaps a road to change to actual fairness for those that follow them on the Venturing Trail. Perhaps they could even take it upon themselves to discover what similar program exists within the GSA regarding citizenship, and the concepts within the two programs could be used as basis for their arguement (and yours) for change. This could really snowball, if they wanted it to. I'd be willing to bet that there are many folks in Scouting across the nation, not just in your little area or mine, who might find that this particular area of concern is due more attention and consideration than it has been given.

 

As I indicated above, I personally don't think this has to be an area where admitting girls into the BSA has to be THE arguement. (It could degenerate into that if allowed.) There's more to the issue of fairness here than allowing girls into the BSA. My own feeling is that the Eagle / Merit Badge issue could be left within the troop environment and left out of Venturing altogether. Thus it becomes less of an immediate issue. Boys would have to register with a troop, and participate in that program also, if Eagle and Merit Badges were a desire above and beyond the Venture Program. On the girls side, I'm not all that familiar with the GSA program, but have the impression that it's a far cry from the BSA program, and the opportunites offered are not as in depth or as exciting as the BSA program. Fewer girls in my area seem to seek out the GSA as an outlet for their energies, than boys seeking out the BSA. That says something to me.

 

Perhaps the Venturing Program, and the remaining Explorer Program could be developed into truly equal opportunity programs for both sexes, leaving intact the existing Troop program. Venturing could be the avenue to full participation by girls in Scouting, thus leaving the existing troop program as a single sex program. The Venturing Program could be developed into a program with similar awards to the Troop program, including something tantamount to Eagle within that program. Over time, that award could become recognized as similar in stature to the Eagle, but in a co-ed environment, thus the two programs remain separate and intact.

 

I think I'm speaking heresy here for some. I certainly do not want to see the existing troop program become co-ed. It works just fine as it is. I don't have daughters, but I have daughters-in-law, and they both had little use for the GSA (no excitement). I've long felt that the BSA could offer a program that was co-ed, separate from the troops, but the same in nature as the troop program, with all the fun, excitment, awards, recognition, etc. I personally think it could be one heck of an exciting arena for both girls and boys to work together in. The troop program offers a wonderful arena for boys to work by themselves, without the girls, Venturing could be the same for both, and still under the watchful eye and control of the Lords of Scouting in Texas.

 

OK, I've pontificated quite enough here. Time for me to shut up. I'd be interested in knowing how the rest of the group here feels about this.

 

Be well.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I am with you, keep Boy Scous and their ranks in the Troop and leave Venturing for ALL crew members, then there is no problem.

 

Speaking of GSA, yes, thats why we started a Crew, the Girls who were in Girl Scouts sponsored by the same church that sponosrs our Troop saw what our activities and wanted in, the Crew was a logical next step and has been very rewarding.

 

Instead of BSA trying to start another new program they wont be able to handle, how about BSA AND GSA form an alliance, (NOT MERGER)and utlilize common resources. BSA might be able to help bolster the GSA program without creating its own new division and GSA might have some ideas that BSA could use... or is this too far fetched?

[jmcquillan]

No, I don't think it's too far fetched an idea. It has a lot of merit. Unfortunately, we are an army of two...many, many more folks on both sides (GSA & BSA) would have to support the idea. But there's a beginning here.

 

Question is: Would the GSA be willing to enter into an adventure like this, or would they simply see it as competition for numbers?

 

[eisely]

Re Philistinism

 

I was just kidding JMCQuillan.

 

Re: Venturing vs Ordinary Troops

 

I don't have any strong feelings about coed venture crews one way or the other. There is no reason it cannot be made to work and be made fair for all. I wouldn't have a problem with girls being eligible for the full panopoly of scouting awards and ranks. I do agree that conventional troops should be all male.

 

One of the difficulties that I have had with scouting for some time is the way the entire program has been pushed down into ever younger ages. It shows up most strongly in conventional troops where you have boys aged 11 to 18 trying to have a common program. The younger pre adolescent and adolescent boys would, in my humble serf opinion, not deal well with girls in the program. It is hard enough at times keeping everybody focused and going in the same direction without introducing another complication. Just as girls benefit from some all girl activities, boys likewise benefit from having some things just boys. Having said all that, it really goes against the ideals of scouting and fundamental fairness to offer girls just a piece of the program at the venture level.