Fat Old Guy Posted July 20, 2004 Author Share Posted July 20, 2004 " It also tells the Scout there are consequences for his forgetfulness." Ed, you are sooooo old school with that antiquated idea that a child should learn that there are always consequences for his actions. Break a window, don't worry because dad will pay for it. Wreak a car, don't worry because dad will buy you a new one. Rob a bank, don't worry dad will hire a lawyer and a shrink to shift the blame. Kill someone, don't worry they'll blame dad and rock music and the gun industry and the lack of fiber in your diet but it will never be your fault. I was about to say that the about the only place that there are negative consequences is school but that isn't true anymore. A friend of my son "earned" three "E"s and two "D"s this last semester but the schools don't think that is quite bad enough to justify holding him back. Nope, there aren't supposed to be negative consequences anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver-shark Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 "It also tells the Scout there are consequences for his forgetfulness." Hi Ed, "Nope, there aren't supposed to be negative consequences anymore." Hi FOG, No guys... it tells the Scout that you are adding negative/punishing consequences to his forgetfulness. The true consequences are that the item will be stolen, broken, or not usable when needed. Train him how to avoid THAT, and you have not only won the battle, but given him a tool to use for the rest of his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eamonn Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Question for FOG: A little Lad who lost his hat, finds out that you have it. You say that to get it back he must sing for it, in front of the entire troop. Little Lad gets up in front of the entire troop and bursts into tears. How do you feel? Eamonn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted July 20, 2004 Author Share Posted July 20, 2004 I'd look at the lad and ask if he wears lace underwear. Then I'd laugh at him, rub his face in the mud and finally give him his cap back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsteele Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 I have to agree with silver-shark on this one. Making a Scout sing for lost items can be hazing and can even be fun for the Scout. Not usually, but even if the Scout is having fun, it's sending the wrong lesson, IMHO. It's sending the lesson that "your friends will take care of you if you misplace something, but you'll have to pay for it in some fashion." I think this will tend to make that singing Scout want to find something of someone elses so that person will have to go through a similar experience (punishment, whatever.) I'm reminded of one of the first things I actually lost. Lost as in not-recovered. It was my favorite swiss army knife. Lost it at a camp site or on the trail on Isle Royale. There was no threat of making me sing. I just wanted my knife back. To the troop's credit, a number of guys hiked with me on the trail back to the previous day's camp (luckily it was a short day) and we looked. They then walked all the way back with me. I learned that Scouts help each other. I learned that my losing a knife effected us all and that it was my fault. I also learned that I would never see that knife again. That lesson stuck with me in a way that singing for a cap never would have. Just something to think about. Unc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txscoutdad Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Well I see I started a really heated debate on this and I want to elaborate on the SC incidents that I mentioned. First this was the middle of the week. First few days on the campsite inspections we were getting hit for latrine cleaness. First we talked to the scouts about picking up after themselves. Next day we still find stuff in the latrine. Second talking about picking up after themselves. Third day, scouts sing for what is left in the latrine with SM having a item left so he sings too. I'm always talking to the boys about how when they leave an area they need to turn around and look to see if they have left stuff. No this is not the only tool we use to reinforce to the boys that they need to be responsible for their stuff. No someone can not go trying to look for stuff belonging to another scout just to make him sing, this goes through the SM to the SPL on the occasions that someone sings. Many items that are left lying around in areas like pinic tables are simply returned to the scout. silver-shark, No negative consequences? What about a scout that decides not to go to merit badge class all week of SC. Does he still get his merit badge? Is that not a negative connsequence? Maybe thats why it seems that camps seem to be just handing them out to all on the roster at the end of the week. Are we going to throw out all of life lessons that can be taught that deal with negative things that can happen in life?? Just to be PC and only stroke the egos of the scouts? I believe that Scouting is a safe place for a Scout to fail, as well as learn and succeed at life lessons and scout skills. Do we set them up for failure? NO. But character is not only built on success, but also on overcoming failure. (This message has been edited by txscoutdad) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boleta Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Sorry, txscoutdad, you are still violating BSA policies against hazing. Continue it if you wish, but it is still wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver-shark Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 "silver-shark, No negative consequences? What about a scout that decides not to go to merit badge class all week of SC. Does he still get his merit badge? Is that not a negative connsequence?" Hi txscoutdad, First, you misinterpreted my satire of FOG's satire about negative consequences. I didn't say there was no room for negative consequences. I said that there is no roon for adding negative/punishing consequences, such as singing for lost items. Secondly, not receiving the merit badge that he should have, is the consequence of his actions, much like someone breaking or stealing an unattended item is the consequence. I'm curious, would you have a boy sing the Barney Song for not going to that Merit badge Class? That would be adding a negative/punishing consequence on top of the missed opportunity. Thirdly, it seems that the tools you're using to correct this situation are: Pick up after yourselves... PICK UP AFTER YOURSELVES... I SAID, PICK UP AFTER YOURSELVES !!! That's it... sing me the Barney Song and you can have it back. Maybe I'm missing something in your particular case, but I see this approach quite often. Seldom do you see the approach of: FIRST TIME OCCURANCE The Patrol Leaders remind their boys to pick up after themselves. SECOND TIME OCCURANCE Eddy; Hey Johnny... you got a second... Johnny; Sure Eddy (the boy's PL)...Danny (the SPL)... What's up? Eddy; I've noticed that you're having a problem remembering to take your shampoo with you when you leave the showers... It's kinda makin us look bad on our inspections. What's up with that? Are you getting distracted? Do you just not care? What? Johnny; Well... I'm just not used to carrying all of this stuff around with me everytime I take a shower. At home, it just stays there till the next time. Eddy; Well, I don't want to embarass you by nagging at you every time we go to the showers, or see you let the guys down on this inspection thing... so... what could you use as a remender to yourself before you leave the shower area? Johnny; Well... I could set my toiletry kit on top of my towel as a reminder to fill it back up before I dry off each time. Eddy; Great idea! I'll try to help you remember to do that next time we go to the showers. See ya later. Danny just gives a thumbs up and says "great" before they walk off. There probably won't be a third occurance, because you've now helped him find a tool to help deal with not only this, but also a tool to deal with similar situations like this in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 silver and others, Singing for lost items is negative IF you present it that way! If it is presented in a positive light, there is no negative connotation! And it isn't hazing anymore than a snipe hunt is hazing! What do you guys do when a Scout loses something at camp? Does it work or do they continue to lose stuff? Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver-shark Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Good morning Ed, I haven't heard anyone say that a snipe hunt isn't hazing here. It is. Eddy; Hey Johnny... I found your shampoo left in the shower again. Johnny; Thanks... I'll need it again tomorrow. Toss it to me. Eddy; Not so fast dude... first you must sing me... The Barney Song... in front of everyone. Maybe there is a more positive way that your group presents this Ed, although for the life of me, I can't imagine what that would be. I have a question for you though. If singing for lost items works... why does it need to continue? By now there should be no more lost items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 silver, Either get out the 10th edition on th BS Handbook or Google snipe. You will find it is a REAL bird! I have a question for you though. If singing for lost items works... why does it need to continue? By now there should be no more lost items. Because there are always new Scouts who lose things! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 "What do you guys do when a Scout loses something at camp?" Lost items are turned into the Scoutmaster (me). I hold the item until the person that lost it or left it out comes looking for it. After a word or two about responsibility, I hand it over. I find that as often as not, the items collected are abandoned rather than lost. I don't feel any satisfaction in watching a performance of "The Good Ship Lollipop". And I prefer that the other boys be entertained in ways other than laughing derisively at one of their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 Jimmy, that's the second person this week that you've killed. This is becoming a problem. What can we do to help you to remember to that brutally murdering someone isn't acceptable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted July 21, 2004 Share Posted July 21, 2004 Hmmm... After careful consideration, I must admit being wrong about this. Can you suggest some troop practices that will cure our societal problems of mass murder and losing things? The Scout Promise and Scout Law don't seem to be working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted July 21, 2004 Author Share Posted July 21, 2004 Frequent floggings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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