Fat Old Guy Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 "What if you had a mentally challenged scout, and he lost some items, would he have to sing to get them back?" Mentally challenged? Does that mean someone taking AP classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boleta Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 I remember with humor singing for a lost hat in front of a large pack at a campfire (as an adult). However, Hazing is no longer allowed in any form by BSA. No exceptions. So, what is considered humiliating? Clearly, many in this thread think the activity to reclaim items by singing for it can be humiliating and it amuses others. It is, therefore, hazing. It only needs to be humiliating to one scout to fit the definition. We have discussed this before. When the program says something clearly like, No Hazing, do not deceive yourself into thinking you are following the program of Scouting when you are not. If you allow this activity, then you are allowing hazing. Some seem to be proud that they continue hazing scouts for the scout's "benefit" and to spite BSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted July 19, 2004 Author Share Posted July 19, 2004 "It only needs to be humiliating to one scout to fit the definition." So if one Scout finds it humiliating to be brought up in front of his peers to recieve his advancement recognition that is hazing and should be discontinued? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver-shark Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Hi FOG, Even the shyest boy knows the difference between being praised for an accomplishment, versus being punished by having to sing a baby song in front of everyone to get an object back. The latter being something that scouting has never been about. Scouting is not about what a boy CAN'T, or SHOULDN'T do, but about what he CAN, or SHOULD do, and finding positive ways to reach a boy's goals. There are no negatives in the literature presented to the boys. Scouting isn't about, "You CAN'T. or SHOULDN'T leave your things laying around." It's about, "Here's why you SHOULD take care of your things, and let's find a way that you CAN do it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Of course, Silly. Where have you been? Everyone knows its a given fact that in Scouting, recognition for advancement is the epitome of harassment and ridicule, very humiliating, and is without question the worst kind of hazing. You could be arrested for engaging in advancement recognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted July 20, 2004 Author Share Posted July 20, 2004 "Even the shyest boy knows the difference . . ." You must have taken lessons from the late Bob White in how to avoid answering a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver-shark Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Hi FOG, I'll be more to the point. "So if one Scout finds it humiliating to be brought up in front of his peers to recieve his advancement recognition that is hazing and should be discontinued?" No. I believe intent is a the key word missing, along with the rest of boteta's missing paragraph, in your hypothetical question. Hazing is something that is done with the INTENT of purposefully injuring an individual, be it physically or emotionally. This is not the intent of the Advancement Method within scouting.(This message has been edited by silver-shark) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted July 20, 2004 Author Share Posted July 20, 2004 "Hazing is something that is done with the INTENT of purposefully injuring an individual, be it physically or emotionally." Since the intent of neither a snipe hunt nor singing for your lost goods is to injure anyone, it cannot be hazing. On the other hand, boxing is hazing which explains why it is not permitted. Cheerleading at football games must also be considered hazing as we intend to demoralize the opponents by saying, "Our team is better than your team." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Hello, hello...calling Rangoon....do I get to sing? Or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver-shark Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 From dictionary.com Hazing "1. To harass by exacting unnecessary, disagreeable, or difficult work. 2. To harass or annoy by playing abusive or shameful tricks upon; to humiliate by practical jokes; -- used esp. of college students; as, the sophomores hazed a freshman." "unnecessary", "abusive", and "humiliate" seem to be the key words in this definition, but this ultimately leads to an emotional injury in many people's minds. Snipe Hunt = Hazing Singing for lost articles = Hazing Boxing = Not Hazing, unless you forced them to do it. Chearleaders = ...now all I can think about is cheerleaders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted July 20, 2004 Author Share Posted July 20, 2004 Gee Argent Elasmobranch, you really did take lessons from Bob White before he passed. You keep changing the definition. You gotta pick one and stick with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Ummm....A snipe is a bird so snipe hunting can't be hazing! Singing is not work therefore not hazing! Although some people should be paid NOT to sing! Korea brings up a good point. When I was the SM, if an item was not left overnight or for an extended period of time, it didn't need to be sung for. The Scouts would bring these to me but they were returned on the spot. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silver-shark Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Good morning FOG, What you call, "changing the definition", I call further clarifying the definition as you drag it off on a tangent. The bottom line in my posts has been that there are more positive ways of handling this situation. Unfortunately, most adults do not know how to do this, because they were brought up in this type of negative-reinforcement environment, and are just continuing what they already know. Negativity breeds negativity. A positive-reinforcement approach will breed positive results. The BSA knows this, and has been practicing this for many years. It is unfortunate that they had to clarify this with their No Hazing Policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted July 20, 2004 Author Share Posted July 20, 2004 Call it what you will, you're still doing the Bob White side step. If first I say this and you show me to be wrong, I'll say that I really meant to say something else. Buh-bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted July 20, 2004 Share Posted July 20, 2004 Why do people think this is a negative thing? For starters, this can help a Scout overcome the fear of getting up in front of a crowd. It also tells the Scout there are consequences for his forgetfulness. It also teaches responsibility and maybe a new song! It is not meant to be negative! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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