Marking with name?

[Fat Old Guy]

Ed, do the others in the troop find the singing amusing? If so, it is hazing. FWIW, I say keep it up. A little humilation goes a long way to correcting negative behavior.

 

Back in the day, when the teacher administered swats in front of the class, that served to warn everyone else and to keep the offender from offending again.

[evmori]

OGE,

I beg to differ. It isn't hazing to have a Scout or leader sing for lost items! If one refuses, then one refuses! Although, this has never happened. And we have never had repeat offenders!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

If someone did refuse, would they get back the item? Are the scouts told they have the right to refuse and will get the object back?

 

At least FOG will call a spade a spade, I disagree with the approach, but he knows what he is doing.

 

What if you had a mentally challenged scout, and he lost some items, would he have to sing to get them back?

[evmori]

If someone did refuse, would they get back the item?

Yes eventually.

Are the scouts told they have the right to refuse and will get the object back?

No. This never came up.

What if you had a mentally challenged scout, and he lost some items, would he have to sing to get them back?

No but there would be a chat with the adults about his responsibility for his own items.

 

OGE,

What are your answers to your questions?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[scoutmom]

My ADHD 12 year old son constantly loses things. He's getting better, but this school year alone we went through 4 pairs of Gym shorts because he kept losing them. AND THEY ALL HAD HIS NAME ON THEM!!

 

I just wanted to point out that there is a flaw in FOG and Ed's theory that humiliating the boys will make them remember. If you requested that my son sing you a song to get back a lost or forgotten item, you would be in for quite an evening. Not only would he sing and not be embarrassed or humiliated - he just might give you an entire floor show including a song and dance routine. And have you joining in by the time he was finished.

 

AND--- the next day he would forget the very same item, again.

 

Now, if you made him kiss his Mom when she dropped him off for a cmaping trip - that would humiliate him! LOL

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

A fair question Ed, very fair

 

In the Troop to which I serve, lost items are corraled up and if they are marked they are returned to the scout individually, not in any ceremony. If they are not marked, they are held up during the reflection we do at the end of every outing, if a boy recognizes his item, he can come forward at that time. If he recognizes his item and does not wish to come forward at that time, but privately, thats fine as well.

 

We had a scout once who was always leaving stuff laying around and it got to be a full time job keeping up with it. Finally in exasperation, the scoutmaster at the time asked the scout why should the troop leaders have to pick up after him and what if all the collected stuff was just thrown away, the answer was, well my father would first sue you and then he would buy me new stuff. (his father is a lawyer). Then to make a point the kid took all his stuff, whether lost or not and deposited it in the nearest trash. Next campout, he had all new stuff, better then before, and they original stuff was not too shabby.

 

Ok, so if you have a child with developmental problems, the answer is to talk to the parents about responsibility and all is well? Or to develop a two tier system in your troop where the "normal" kids have to sing for their stuff but the "retards" dont? (harsh word yes, but how long before the "normal" kids figure it out and their terms may well be worse.

 

 

[packsaddle]

I see the point about hazing. I'll still sing to them though.

But one thing is for sure, for sure. I'll be doing some serious dumpster diving after future outings!

[evmori]

And because kids constantly lose stuff is the reason it needs to be dealt with! Just giving the stuff they lose back doesn't solve the problem. Kids need to be responsible for the own gear and personal items. OGE, your lawyer son is not the norm (thank goodness)

 

Fat Old Guy,

I just saw your post! How do you figure if the others find it amusing it is hazing?

 

scoutmom,

Great! If your son likes to sing & dance then maybe his talents could be utilized in teaching songs & skits to the rest of the Troop! That said, he is still responsible for his stuff. If he loses it and nothing happens, how is he to learn his responsibility? Putting his name on his stuff doesn't help teach him NOT to lose his stuff. If anything, he might figure if he loses it, someone will return it because his name IS on it! Maybe NOT having his name on his stuff would help!

 

Singing for lost items is not meant to humiliate but teach.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[OldGreyEagle]

First of all, Ain't this great, a return to the spirited debate of times past...

 

yes, the lawyer's son exmaple is extreme, the point was we were not going to teach him much of anything, eventually he lost interest in scouts and stopped comming. He tempered my original stand about scouting being for all boys, sometimes, it is regrettably not.

There are kids who will lose stuff, no matter how hard they try and will hate the humiliation of singing to get it back. Ok, the answer some may think is learn from your past mistakes, but what about those who can't. Whose short term memory has as many holes in it as a sponge. You aren't doing anything other than providing entertainment for the troop.

 

And since you didnt mention it, the two tier system is ok with you, with the retards and normal kids treated differently?

[scoutmom]

Ed,

 

I don't know what kind of experience you have with kids with ADHD, but my son losing stuff isn't a result of him being absent minded. It's a result of his medical condition. (Yes it is a medical condition.) He does have consequences (he has to purchase anything that needs to be replaced with his own money and he has to search for his lost stuff - i don't expect anyone to deliver it to him), however, behavior modification doesn't happen overnight, or with one lesson. It is a constant process and the support and understanding of his Scout leaders means a good deal. If their methods are consistent with my own, that will go a long way in helping him to learn to be responsible for his own things.

 

And he puts his name on his own stuff. I see that as a step towards him taking responsibility.

[evmori]

And since you didnt mention it, the two tier system is ok with you, with the retards and normal kids treated differently?

No not really. The normal kids will feel they are being treated unfairly if the challenged (I abhor the word retard) kids have a different set of rules. Maybe the rules need to be applied differently.

scoutmom,

We have had ADHD kids in our Troop and they were expected to follow the same rules as the non-ADHD kids.

 

(editing was for spelling)

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[silver-shark]

"There are kids who will lose stuff, no matter how hard they try and will hate the humiliation of singing to get it back. Ok, the answer some may think is learn from your past mistakes, but what about those who can't. Whose short term memory has as many holes in it as a sponge. You aren't doing anything other than providing entertainment for the troop."

 

You really hits the nail on the head OGE.

 

I used to be one of those guys that felt this would help the boys, but since have figured out that you seldom get a positive result from a negative-reinforcement approach like this.

 

If we truly want to help the boys overcome this problem, we will help them find positive ways of preventing it.

 

The first time this happens, take the boy aside, and through a breif period of reflection, help him find a solution that appears to be his own. That way he has ownership of the solution and a vested interest in it.

 

This could be as simple as helping him realize that if he doesn't put things away when he's thinking about it, that it won't happen. (ie mess kit, day pack, canteen, hat, etc... gets misplaced) Gentle reminders from time to time will also help with this.

 

Have a particular place in his pack for certain things, every time he goes camping, so that he can see what's missing when getting ready to go home.

 

In extreme cases, he could have a check list to go over, to make sure that everything he brought with him goes back home.

 

Remind him what "Thrifty" means.

 

If this happens repeatedly, have a chat with him and a parent as soon as you get back, so that they can help to find a solution.

 

A positive approach will give him the tools he needs to avoid this for the rest of his life, not just in scouts. Humiliation won't.

 

[FScouter]

Silver-Shark has the right idea about this:

"The first time this happens, take the boy aside, and through a breif period of reflection, help him find a solution that appears to be his own. That way he has ownership of the solution and a vested interest in it."

 

Adult leaders that resort to punishment or humiliation approaches such as teapot songs apparently don't have time or skills to properly teach the boy. Whether they admit is or not, I believe these people secretly hope someone will lose something so they can get their jollies watching the troop laugh as a boy is publicly humiliated. It's a sickness of sorts. The lesson that gets imparted to the rest of the troop is that humiliation is "funny".

 

Find a way to teach responsibility that is consistent with the 12 points of the Scout Law.

[Fat Old Guy]

"I just saw your post! How do you figure if the others find it amusing it is hazing?"

 

That's the definition of hazing. Forcing someone to do something, usually humiliating, for the amusement of others.

 

The thing is that those who can't learn to deal with a little bit of humiliation are going to have trouble later in life. Life is fraught with humiliating experiences which range from locking your keys in your car to having your Visa rejected when you're on a 'big date' to telling everyone that you got the new job only to discover that you didn't.

 

 

[KoreaScouter]

My last Troop sang to get back lost stuff when I signed on with them, first as a committee member, then as SM. At first, I thought that unless you had an onion skin, it was no big deal. Then, I saw a trend developing in which anything left unattended, even momentarily, was snatched up and turned over to the SM for some evening entertainment. I saw this as a negative development, and not exactly what our founder intended when he penned the Oath/Law.

 

When I was in a position to change it, my policy became this: If you find something that belongs to another Scout, and you know whose it is, return it to him as quickly as you can, and let me know. At our next assembly, the Scout who found/returned the property will be recognized by name for doing a good turn. Tries to focus on a positive rather than a negative, and spares me from having to be a custodian for a pile of junk until next assembly.

 

I agree with other posters who claim that singing won't fix medical/motivational problems -- it only ensures that your lost/found bin will fill with things Scouts won't claim 'cuz they don't want to be embarrassed.

 

KS