Uniform Police

[cliffgolden]

Hey FOG,

 

Your "big picture person" is actually a "no picture person". If they're only in it for their kid to make Eagle, blow off the rules, and don't get the Methods, they probably don't even realize there's a picture at all.

 

Now your "little picture person" is actually a "big picture person". They see the mosaic. You see, "little picture people" can't see the mosaic.

 

You keep working on those picture people terms though, you'll get it eventually.

 

You must have missed the optional "Picture People Term Workshop" at 21st Century Woodbadge.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

[Fat Old Guy]

"You keep working on those picture people terms though, you'll get it eventually."

 

Well, you have your definitions and I . . . have the right ones.

 

"You must have missed the optional "Picture People Term Workshop" at 21st Century Woodbadge."

 

I have no plans to attend MS Wood Badge 2001.

 

BTW, there are many reasons that the survey that you referenced is flawed but one reason leaps off the page, no unit may require a uniform.

 

 

[cliffgolden]

*****FOG quote*****

BTW, there are many reasons that the survey that you referenced is flawed but one reason leaps off the page, no unit may require a uniform.

*****end quote*****

 

Hey FOG,

 

I agree, there are several reasons the survey is flawed. The person wasn't attempting a scientific survey, just an informal one.

 

"No unit may require a uniform" is absolutely correct. Most units out there don't understand that though.

 

The only method I require is Ideals, the other 7 methods I try to encourage in my troop. I am more successful with some boys than others, and with some Methods more than others.

 

On our honor, we do our best.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

[FScouter]

cliffgolden - you make a pretty convincing case for ditching the uniform. Excuse me if I continue to wear it and encourge others to wear it. The subject seems to be a hot button for you. I'd suggest you donate those several field uniforms you have in the closet to an inner city troop where they would be appreciated. "Me thinks thou doth protest too much."

[Bob White]

cliffgolden,

For the sake of brevity let me direct you to the resources of the BSA available to all scout leaders regarding the purposes of the uniform.

You will find this in the Cub Scout Leader Handbook, Cub Leaders Job Specific Training Syllabi, The Boy Scout Handbook, The Scoutmaster handbook, Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training Syllabus, The Venturing Leader Handbook, and Venturing Leader Training Syllabus.

 

Rather than reprint all of their material in the post please visit these resources. They are all available to every volunteer.

 

I posted that the unit does not have the authority to alter the Scout uniform. You replied, " Did I say otherwise?"

 

Yes, you did. You posted, Regarding the implementation of the uniform method, some troops only require a shirt, others shirt and pants, some add the belt, some might require Scout socks"

 

The Uniform is a trademark of the BSA, and BSA uniform policies state that no individual or unit has the authority to alter the BSA uniform. It is OK if a scout does not own a complete uniform; he is only required to wear what he has as completely and correctly as possible. What is not allowed is for the unit to say, "you only need the shirt and belt". That is altering the Scout uniform and the unit is not free to do that as you suggested. The motivation should always be toward a complete uniform.

 

Would you tell a scout that they only have to know half the points of the Scout Law since they are only asked to wear half the uniform?

 

It is very noble that you find the Ideals to be the most important. The BSA disagrees and says that all methods are inter-related and equal in importance. The philosophy of the BSA is that in order to be effective -n teaching the lessons of the Law and Oath you need to use the other 7 methods. All of them. Completely.

 

Let's just agree that we disagree. I feel that the number of scouters worried about the exact location of a service star is but a fraction of a percent of all the volunteers and not worth the energy to write about, and that the uniform plays an important role in reaching the aims of scouting.

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

" I feel that the number of scouters worried about the exact location of a service star is but a fraction of a percent of all the volunteers and not worth the energy to write about"

 

Maybe we'd be better off if more Scouters worried about service star location just as we'd be better off if more Scouters worried about the Patrol method and didn't turn Boy Scouts into Webelos III. We'd be better off is more Scouters felt that that the Scout Law applied outside of Scout meetings ("Sure he's been expelled from School for fighting but should we let that impact his advancement?"). We'd be better off if parents would let their boys figure out where the money comes from rather than just writing checks for them. We'd be . . . .

[cliffgolden]

*****quote Fscouter*****

cliffgolden - you make a pretty convincing case for ditching the uniform. Excuse me if I continue to wear it and encourge others to wear it. The subject seems to be a hot button for you. I'd suggest you donate those several field uniforms you have in the closet to an inner city troop where they would be appreciated. "Me thinks thou doth protest too much."

*****end quote*****

 

Hello Fscouter,

 

I don't make any case for ditching the uniform; it's one of the 8 methods.

 

You don't need to be excused; you have my blessings for wearing the uniform properly and encouraging others to wear it. I will continue to do the same. I fully support that notion.

 

I make a case against the foaming idiots that attack anyone with less than perfect adherence to uniforming. It's a method that we continually work toward achieving.

 

There are special circumstances where the uniform might be suspended, like inner city programs for at-youth risk. Do some research on it, those are council sponsored programs, not mine.

 

Hot button? Yes you're probably right. I may be leaning toward the antithesis of the Uniform Police. I'll have to try to take it down a notch or two and be more diplomatic in my approach. I have to remind myself my audience is fellow Scouters who care deeply about the program. Those who know me would tell you I am a very nice quiet easy-going person. Like anyone, I do have my hot buttons.

 

Donate my uniforms? Actually I usually donate my uniforms to boys in my own troop that are in need, and loan them out to other adults as needed. Charity starts at home. Unfortunately not too many boys are my size.

 

"Me thinks thou doth protest too much." If you're trying to imply something with your Shakespearean quote, it might be more courteous/courageous to speak plainly and directly. This thread has been about uniforming and I have argued my case. If I sometimes seem to have a "take no prisoners" attitude toward that, then I apologize. My intent is not to be in "attack mode", I have been defending my posting at the origin of this thread.

 

I assume you have no comment regarding the photo content of Boys Life or the Scout Handbook.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

 

[FScouter]

cliffgolden - There are lots of pictures of imperfectly uniformed Scouts in Boys Life. Maybe in the Handbook too. Ive seen uniform anomalies in the videos used in adult leader training too.

 

So, what statement are you trying to make by pointing this out? What statement are you trying to make by telling us that a survey was done that shows nearly half of troops consider a only shirt to be the uniform? Do you cheat on your taxes because you found a bogus survey that shows nearly half of other taxpayers cheat on their taxes too?

 

The tone of your posts, and the tone of your silly story that started this thread is that of mocking those that wear the uniform correctly, and take pride in doing so. Why do you feel a need to lash out against correct uniforming, and defend improper uniforming practices?

 

If a fellow Scouter pointed out that your fly was open, would you take offense at that? Would you defend the practice of walking around with ones zipper down? Would you publish a survey that shows 45% of Scouts have their fly open? Would you point to a picture in the Boys Life magazine to show that youre not the only one with their zipper down? Maybe instead you could say thanks for pointing that out, and zip it up.

 

[fotoscout]

Hello Everybody,

 

Heres a thought that Ive been thinking about going public with. Now mind you, this is what I call a floater, its not for public consumption yet.

 

If you dont like the uniform, then join the youth group attached to your house of worship. They should be teaching the same values that we teach and they wont ask you to wear a BSA Uniform.

 

 

The End.

 

[johnsned]

Cliff, sorry for dragging you in on this. I never thought that posting an amusing story would cause such brouhaha. Someone I met a Philmont posted your story on a yahoo groups and I thought people on this forum would enjoy the story, so I took, the liberty of posting it here. I had no idea that I would be causing such a controversy.

 

Sorry I havent posted anything lately I didnt mean to leave you to fend for yourself. I read your posts and you were doing better than I could.

 

I agree that the uniform is important, I wear it (complete & proper) and encourage the boys it my troop and pack to follow the uniform standard to the letter. I will call a boy aside and ask him why his shirt isnt ironed or tell him to tuck it in, but before Ill criticize a boy for not having official scout pants Ill try to find out why. I have personally purchased over 30 uniform shirts for boys from poor families that cant afford to purchase the uniform and for other where it may be a struggle but the family could afford it but dont give that much importance to scouting. I dont want them to lose out on scouting because of a uniform. I can buy 30 shirts for boys and have them all be able to participate or maybe 4-6 complete uniforms. Id rather have 30 boys partially uniformed than only six in complete uniform.

 

My goal is to have them all in complete uniforms, I think they will feel better and more a part of scouting and I will give them a since of pride that they have accomplished something and are doing it right.

 

[johnsned]

FScouter said:

The tone of your posts, and the tone of your silly story that started this thread is that of mocking those that wear the uniform correctly, and take pride in doing so. Why do you feel a need to lash out against correct uniforming, and defend improper uniforming practices?

 

Once again I dont think you get it. Nobody is lashing out on proper uniforms, we take issue with those that go overboard, or there reaction is out of proportion to the offense. That is what the story was trying to convey. All of the examples were as I mentioned disproportionate to the uniforming transgression.

 

All of the examples were of public reprimands and not private encouragement to do better, or helping set goals to be in a complete uniform.

 

(I think we outed some members of the Double Secret Uniform Police)

 

-JohnSned

[scoutingagain]

The tone of your posts, and the tone of your silly story that started this thread is that of mocking those that wear the uniform correctly, and take pride in doing so. Why do you feel a need to lash out against correct uniforming, and defend improper uniforming practices?

 

As someone who has followed this thread, I did not read the initial story as interpreted above at all. I read it as satire, poking a little fun at those that seem to enjoy finding fault in others that may not wear the uniform completely or correcly all the time. I did not interpret it as mocking those that do wear the full uniform correctly.

 

I do wear a uniform as a committee member, but as I confessed earlier one of my knots is upside down. It's on my list of things to fix.

 

SA

[cliffgolden]

Hey Bob White,

 

I tried to engage you in discussion over the purposes of the Scouting uniform. You referred me to resources not wanting to enter that discussion. OK.

 

I was surprised you referenced Venturing materials. I am both a Venturing Advisor and a Scoutmaster. Uniform is not a method of Venturing. Venturing has seven Methods LEADERSHIP - GROUP ACTIVITIES - ADULT ASSOCIATION - RECOGNITION - THE IDEALS - HIGH ADVENTURE - TEACHING OTHERS.

 

For the sake of brevity, I'll quote the first sentence in the BSA's Online Venturing Fast Start Training section athttp://www.scouting.org/venturing/faststart/uniform1.html

 

*****quote from BSA Venturing Fast Start Training*****

The uniform, if any, is the choice of the crew.

*****end quote*****

 

That reference doesn't support your argument.

 

*****quote Bob White*****

I posted that the unit does not have the authority to alter the Scout uniform. You replied, " Did I say otherwise?"

 

Yes, you did. You posted, Regarding the implementation of the uniform method, some troops only require a shirt, others shirt and pants, some add the belt, some might require Scout socks"

*****end quote*****

 

There's a significant difference between implementing the Uniform Method and altering the uniform. The wearing of incomplete uniforms is not altering the uniform according to the BSA.

 

*****quote BSA*****

It is OK if a scout does not own a complete uniform; he is only required to wear what he has as completely and correctly as possible.

*****end quote*****

 

Haven't we already hiked down that path?

 

*****quote Bob White*****

Would you tell a scout that they only have to know half the points of the Scout Law since they are only asked to wear half the uniform?

*****end quote*****

 

To earn the Scout badge requirement #7 reads Understand and agree to live by the Scout Oath or Promise, Law, motto, and slogan, and the Outdoor Code.

 

To earn the Tenderfoot badge requirement #7 reads Repeat from memory and explain in your own words the Scout Oath, Law, motto, and slogan.

 

Knowledge of the Scout Law is a requirement in Scout and Tenderfoot. The BSA does not require a Scout to own a uniform. So that's the difference; knowledge of the Scout Law is contained within a BSA requirement, while owning a uniform is not.

 

*****quote Bob White*****

The philosophy of the BSA is that in order to be effective -n teaching the lessons of the Law and Oath you need to use the other 7 methods. All of them. Completely.

*****end quote*****

I agree with using all 8 methods of Scouting. The problem is defining what is completely? Does every Scout have to earn Eagle, does everyone have to climb a mountain at Philmont, does everyone have to wear the full field uniform at all Scout functions? They don't in Boys Life. Is that wrong? Is that using the uniform method incompletely? Who's to say? We all do our best.

 

*****Bob White quote*****

Let's just agree that we disagree. I feel that the number of scouters worried about the exact location of a service star is but a fraction of a percent of all the volunteers and not worth the energy to write about, and that the uniform plays an important role in reaching the aims of scouting.

*****end quote*****

 

Well Bob White, we agree and we disagree, and we agree to disagree.

 

Actually I'll go along with your quote above. I'm sure if we sat down together I'm sure we would find we hold much more in common than our differences would suggest.

 

Some say if a troop is wearing partial uniforms, they are abusing or ignoring the Uniform Method. I say if they're fostering citizenship, developing character, and promoting fitness, that boys are having fun and experiencing positive growth, then that's OK. It's not perfect, but it's OK.

 

Some demand perfection in one method, then seem fairly indifferent in others.

 

I've got to go now.

 

There's a group of Scouts waiting for their Scoutmaster.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

 

 

 

[Bob White]

cliffgolden,

Please allow me to answer the questions you posed to me.

"Does every Scout have to earn Eagle,"

Attaining Eagle is not the goal or purpose of the advancement method or a requirement of the BSA.

 

"does everyone have to climb a mountain at Philmont,"

Nowhere in the scouting program is climbing a mountain at philmont even suggested to be a goal or method of the BSA program.

 

"does everyone have to wear the full field uniform at all Scout functions?

Nowhere in the resources of the BSA does it say that the Field Uniform is required or even appropriate apparel for all Scout functions. It fact the BSA handbooks and the training materials say just the opposite.

 

They don't in Boys Life.

So what?

 

Is that wrong?

No.

 

Is that using the uniform method incompletely?

Who can tell. It is just a photograph.

 

Who's to say?

The BSA and its commissioned officers

 

We all do our best.

You have been around long enough to know that is not true. We all do what we choose. Some choose to do their best, some choose to do what they want.

 

[cliffgolden]

****Fscouter quote*****

Why do you feel a need to lash out against correct uniforming, and defend improper uniforming practices?

*****end quote*****

 

Have I lashed out at correct uniforming?

 

Go through my posts and quote where I've lashed out. I don't recall that. I may have lashed out at those who are preoccupied with the uniform. That's a totally different thing. Uniforming is a method of Scouting.

 

I jokingly lashed out at the "Uniform Police" in my original post, and that was in a joking manner.

 

Why is it you feel so terribly offended by that?

 

This weekend I attended our district's Klondike Derby and Vigil Fire. I wore official Scout trousers, web belt, Scout shirt, and red wool jacket. I also wore Yukon boots, poly long johns and undershirt, wool socks with synthetic liners, and a polar fleece hat and gloves.

 

Was that good enough? Without Scout socks or Scout hat, should I have stayed home?

 

There were many that dressed for the weather without any regard to the uniform.

 

Given your "zipper being down" analogy, I could have spent my day going around informing others of their uniform deficiencies. Instead I chose to work with the boys. They had a fantastic time doing all the events, regardless of their uniform level. I feel my time was well invested.

 

There are photos in Boys Life and the Scout Handbook of boys having fun in Scouting without uniforms. The point is that it happens. We wake up the next day and the BSA is still standing. It didn't crumble overnight because a boy didn't wear a uniform.

 

The survey I referred to in an earlier post depicted reality. Most troops don't have perfect uniforming, but all in the survey had some level of uniforming. The uniform method doesn't only exist in perfection. Most of the other 7 methods don't either. We use all 8 methods in Scouting. Few troops I've seen achieve perfection with all 8 methods.

 

Some Scouters demand perfection in Uniform, but not the other 7 methods. I see that as hypocrisy.

 

Wearing a complete uniform verses paying taxes is a poor analogy.

 

Now if the U.S. Government decided that citizens were no longer required to pay taxes, rather they "encouraged" taxes as a "method" of government, and if you couldn't pay your full taxes, that's OK, you can just pay it as completely as possible. Then your tax analogy might be a valid comparison to the uniform policies of the BSA.

 

Since you've expressed such a deep concern, let me put your mind at ease.

 

My taxes are paid and my fly is zipped.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois