Uniform Police

[dan]

Hi Cliff We are neighbors. I am with a troop in Lily Lake. I know I have heard your name some where before? So we may have ran into each other somewhere.

According to the BSA site it says this about the methods.

 

The methods by which the aims are achieved are listed below in random order to emphasize the equal importance of each.

This is also stated in the SM handbook I believe, do not have a copy with me.

[cliffgolden]

Dan we are indeed neighbors.

 

We usually stop in Lily Lake at least once a year bicycling on the Great Western Trail. We drive through there numerous times on our way to somewhere else.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

[cliffgolden]

*****quote--Bob White*****

""For fairness sake, I went back and reread the original post. I walk away unchanged. As a silly story (it structurally isn't a joke), it's fine up until the last two paragraphs. The writers point is to exagerate the humor in order to emphasize his point of the last two paragraphs.

 

The problem is that his summary of the purpose of the uniform is greatly lacking. The sense of belonging that he points to as the only pupose of the uniform, at least the only one he offers, is but a sliver of the pupose of the uniform as a method in scouting.

 

There lies my problem. He brushes off the uniform method as an unimportant factor in achieving the aims, and it is not. He fails to mention any of the other reasons for the uniform, either by choice or lack of knowledge. It leaves a very mistaken immpression on the purpose and use of the uniform method.""

*****end quote--Bob White*****

 

Maybe Bob didn't read very carefully, or maybe I'm just completely missing the boat in what I wrote. Taking one of the later paragraphs and breaking it down into points, this is basically what I said.

 

**

"Our Uniform should be about..."

1. a bridge bringing people together

2. a reminder of the ideals we hold

3. a commitment to an Oath and set of Laws

4. a pride in what we are a part of

5. an outward symbol of good to the community

6. For many people that uniform stands for hope

7. uniform has come to stand for an organization

 

"A uniform can accomplish all of those things even if the patches aren't placed perfectly or the pants don't match."

**

 

Now a few obvious points I neglected to include might be:

8. place to wear the badges & show accomplishments

9. erasing different income levels

10. an action showing commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting

11. pride in the troop you belong to

 

I think # 8 is certainly true.

 

With #9, designer athletic shoes and getting dropped off in a Lexus can easily void that.

 

I think #10 is mostly covered in #2 & #3.

 

Then #11 can be accomplished by a great program as well. I feel being proud of what you do is more important than being proud of how you look.

 

I am always anxious to learn more about the Scouting program. Part of the game of Scouting is continually learning new things.

 

If the first 7 items are but a sliver of what the Uniform Method is about, I pray that someone can shed some light upon my ignorance? Open the doors of knowledge so that I might be saved.

 

I yearn to learn.

 

Oh Bob White, I await your light.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois(This message has been edited by cliffgolden)

[Bob White]

cliffgolden

I would be happy to assist, but perhaps first you could shed some light on the scouting resources you referenced in explaining the purpose of the scout uniform.

 

I now wait your light.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[cliffgolden]

Hello Bob White,

 

You asked for my light, and I gladly share.

 

I didn't use any reference material for the original post at the beginning of this thread.

 

It is a just a silly fictional story followed by a few paragraphs reflecting my own personal feelings, for better or worse.

 

I wasn't intending to publish a treatise, I was just posting an e-mail. I was hoping it might cause a few smiles, and a few wrinkles of gray matter.

 

It was just a collection of thoughts from my head and heart after experiencing 42 years of Scouting.

 

Since you asked for a reference, I looked this up just now on the national BSA site. It contains the standard Uniform Method paragraph we've all read 100 times.

 

http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=ba

 

*****start quote*****

Uniform

The uniform makes the Boy Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image in the community. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Boy Scout's commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting. The uniform gives the Boy Scout identity in a world brotherhood of youth who believe in the same ideals. The uniform is practical attire for Boy Scout activities and provides a way for Boy Scouts to wear the badges that show what they have accomplished."

*****end quote*****

 

O.K.

I showed you my light, now you show me yours.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

[cliffgolden]

 

As a side note on the uniform issue.

 

Here is an interesting survey done by someone on the Scouts-L listerv. It polls 21 troops and 1 crew about their unit uniforming policies.

 

http://www.scouttroop.org/oh/bsa/456/uniforms.pdf

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

[OldGreyEagle]

This little scouting light of mine

I'm gonna let it shine

This little scouting light of mine

I'm gonna let it shine

This little scouting light of mine

I'm gonna let it shine

Let it shine all the time

All the time

 

Hide it under a bushel no

I'm gonna let it shine

Hide it under a bushel no

I'm gonna let it shine

Hide it under a bushel no

I'm gonna let it shine

let it shine all the time

All the time

 

This little scouting light of mine

I'm gonna let it shine

This little scouting light of mine

I'm gonna let it shine

This little scouting light of mine

I'm gonna let it shine

Let it shine all the time

All the time

 

[mk9750]

OutdoorThinker-

 

OGE has broken out in song again. You must be so proud! (lol!)

 

Mark

[Bob White]

I think as long as we agree that it was a silly story followed by a personal opinion with little relation to the actual purpose of the Scout uniforms as explained in the resources of the BSA, then I have no problem with what you posted.

 

If you intended for the silly story to have a purpose in teaching the use of the uniform without actually referring to the purposes it is intended for, then I have to disagree with what you wrote.

 

If it is your intention to deliver today's scouting program based on the methods of decades ago, that is your personal decision. It is doubtful that it that will be effective with todays youth, but that is an individual unit problem and not a BSA program problem.

 

The fact is that of the reasons Johnsned presented for wearing the uniform gave an incomplete view of it's importance. No method of scouting stands alone, each is interrelated and supportive of others. As you correctly posted none is more important than another, and so conversely none is less important than another. Yet, the original posts leaves the impression that uniforming is merely about dressing alike, and is only one of eight methods. Actually, as I mentioned it is in fact one of only eight. Making the use of all eight vital in successfully delivering a scouting program.

 

You then give more importance to your opinion of what the uniform means by trivializing the BSA reasons with the comment "It contains the standard Uniform Method paragraph we've all read 100 times." Should not the BSA have the power to define its own methods? If you were to refer to the Boy Scout Handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook and Scoutmaster Leqader Specific Training, you would learn additional reasons for the uniform that you have failed to mention.

 

Think about the role the uniform plays as a supporting element of Advancement, Patrol Method, Citizenship Development, the Ideals, and the Outdoors. In addition it's effects on behavior, grooming, and self-image. The uniform is as important as any other method in achieving the aims of scouting. If you want to point a spotlight at the very few individuals who focus more on the the orientation of a knot rather than on the purpose of the method I agree. but to write-off the importance of the uniform as a method of scouting , which is how the original posts reads, is an inaccurate representation of the value of the uniform.And that was what bothered me.

 

One last comment. In reference to your original post on this thread. Yes, how the methods are used will vary from unit to unit, but how the uniform is used and worn is controlled by BSA national policies.

 

The BSA is very specific that a unit, or individual, has no auhtority to determine what the uniform will consist of other than the options given them by the BSA. So while your unit can choose whether or not to wear a neckerchief, they cannot make the determination that in their unit a Scout Shirt will constitute a uniform. Read the Insignia Guide 2003-2005.

 

I agree that requiring a scout to have uniform pants to advance is a violation of the BSA advancement policies, but requiring him to be in as complete and correct uniform as possible is IN the policies. You do not have the luxury of picking which ones to support and which to ignore. If the scout does not have uniform pants he should be encouraged to get them. If he has only the shirt then he is required to wear it as complete and correct as possible. Is it impossible for the parts to be sewn in the proper location? Is it impossible to have a clean, neat shirt and tucked in. Is it impossible to wear the neckerchief over the rolled in collar or under an open collar as prescribed by the BSA? Is it impossible for the current rank, office and patrol affiliation to be properly displayed?

 

I do not see that as policing. Do you?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

I agree that requiring a scout to have uniform pants to advance is a violation of the BSA advancement policies, but requiring him to be in as complete and correct uniform as possible is IN the policies.

So if a Scout has no uniform, that's ok!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[FScouter]

cliffgolden - It sure sounds like you are trying to justify NOT wearing the uniform. What is your point in referring us to a survey of 21 troops where the majority don't wear the uniform? What is the purpose of such a survey? Why would any Scouter that supposedly supports the BSA program trivialize one of the eight methods? How does the minimalist approach to uniforming support Scouting and further the program? What is your purpose with this??

[Proud Eagle]

Uniforming is probably the center of so much attention because it is the most visible and easiest to judge the 8 methods. This is particularly true amung adults. It is easy to see which adults embrace uniforming. It is harder to see which ones embrace the others. It is also true that those that follow/use one method are more likely to use the others. That doesn't mean that someone out of uniform is ignorring all 8 methods, but it indicates they are ignoring at least one. Generally I would say wearing the uniform has little relation to the ability of someone to carry out any technical requirement in Scouting. (paper work, money management, merit badge counseling, supervising a hike, or anything like that) However, it is a very good meter of how completely someone has accepted and embraced the Scouting program as a hole. (have they "internalized" it?) The best adult leaders I know are almost always in uniform. At the same time those same adults have never been known to attack someone else because of uniforming. I do know of plenty of very well uniformed adults that harp on the uniform but are hit and miss in other areas. There are also other adults that do a wonderful job on 7 of the 8 but miss uniforming almost completely. In short, uniforming is the quick, easy way to measure someone else in Scouting, but it isn't necessarily the best way of measuring their performance.

 

Oh, and I really like the thing Bob White said about making it ONLY ONE of the eight instead of one of ONLY EIGHT. I think he is spot on about that part.

[cliffgolden]

Bob,

 

What can I say?

 

There are big picture people and little picture people.

 

The big picture people see the overall Scouting program and how it works. The little picture people see the little pieces and become preoccupied with the details, unable to comprehend the larger overall structure.

 

Uniform police are usually little picture people. They focus on whether the patches are 3/8 of an inch in the wrong direction. They see the Uniform as a goal to achieve, rather than a method for building citizenship, character, and fitness.

 

They see the Uniform as a Goal rather than a Method. "UNIFORMING IS A METHOD, NOT A GOAL!" Sound familiar?

 

I don't believe Uniform is more important than the other Methods of Scouting. Some Scouters treat it that way. That was the main point of my post. I am sorry if that didn't appear clear enough for you.

 

I'll spend the remainder of this post answering your specific concerns.

 

****Bob White quote****

I think as long as we agree that it was a silly story followed by a personal opinion with little relation to the actual purpose of the Scout uniforms as explained in the resources of the BSA, then I have no problem with what you posted.

****Bob White end quote****

 

It was a silly story followed by a personal opinion, we agree on that.

 

You feel my description of the uniform has little relation to the actual purpose of the Scout uniform. I'm sorry, but that I have to dispute.

 

I highlighted 7 points made in the post about the uniform, and added 4 more obvious ones.

 

I don't see your list. Please provide me your list on that subject. If I've missed some major areas, you would be doing me a favor to share that information. I always do my best to try to share Scouting information with others. That what this forum is all about, isn't it?

 

*****Bob White quote*****

If you intended for the silly story to have a purpose in teaching the use of the uniform without actually referring to the purposes it is intended for, then I have to disagree with what you wrote.

*****end quote*****

 

No Bob, surprisingly enough, it was not intended as a teaching tool for the use of the Uniform Method.

 

Did my post strike you as a training syllabus?

 

*****Bob White quote*****

If it is your intention to deliver today's scouting program based on the methods of decades ago, that is your personal decision. It is doubtful that it that will be effective with todays youth, but that is an individual unit problem and not a BSA program problem.

*****end quote*****

 

I provided information on methods only as an interest piece, and stated such. I do believe seeing Scouting as a movement through time, and learning of its history gives people a better perspective of its evolution and development. I'm sure you value history and tradition.

 

If you question whether my involvement with today's youth is ineffective, I can assure you I have been effectively working with hundreds of youth for over 28 years as a Scoutmaster.

 

*****Bob White****

As you correctly posted none is more important than another, and so conversely none is less important than another. Yet, the original posts leaves the impression that uniforming is merely about dressing alike, and is only one of eight methods. Actually, as I mentioned it is in fact one of only eight. Making the use of all eight vital in successfully delivering a scouting program.

****end quote****

 

I simply stated national's policy, and Dan confirmed it in another post.

 

I never said I agreed with it.

 

I believe the Ideals Method is the most important one.

 

You can hike the trails of Philmont without a uniform and without earning advancement, without patrols, and it can still be a quality Scouting experience.

 

When you abandon the ideals of Scouting, it is no longer Scouting. It doesn't matter how many badges you've earned or how well uniformed you are, when you abandon the ideals you've abandoned Scouting.

 

Ideals are more important than Uniforms. What you wear in your heart is far more important than what you hang in your closet.

 

Therefore, I don't believe all 8 Methods are equal. I do however agree that all 8 Methods are important.

 

*****Bob White*****

You then give more importance to your opinion of what the uniform means by trivializing the BSA reasons with the comment "It contains the standard Uniform Method paragraph we've all read 100 times."

*****end quote*****

 

You wanted a reference, so I quoted a basic uniform reference. I didn't use any references in my original piece.

 

My comment wasn't meant to trivialize the BSA position; I simply thought I was quoting the obvious. That same paragraph is listed in virtually every major Scouting publication and training program. I have read it 100 times. I assume any Scouter who's been in the program for any length of time would have read it 100 times as well. If I read something 100 times, it's because it's important, not because it's trivial.

 

*****Bob White quote*****

Should not the BSA have the power to define its own methods? If you were to refer to the Boy Scout Handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook and Scoutmaster Leqader Specific Training,

you would learn additional reasons for the uniform that you have failed to mention.

*****end quote*****

 

In my last post I specifically asked you to tell me your additional reasons for the uniform.

 

Thus far you haven't been forthcoming with a checklist.

 

As for methods, who ever said the BSA shouldn't define their own?

 

*****Bob White quote****

Think about the role the uniform plays as a supporting element of Advancement, Patrol Method, Citizenship Development, the Ideals, and the Outdoors. In addition it's effects on behavior, grooming, and self-image.

*****end quote*****

 

I understand the "supporting element" of the Uniform Method. The methods are designed to support each other. Keep in mind though, not all 8 Methods are in use at all times.

 

Troops will be achieving varying levels with various Methods. Some are higher in leadership development, other have great adults who can relate exceptionally well to youth, others might have an outstanding advancement program, and so on. Everyone does the best they can using the 8 Methods.

 

I don't like people attacking troops or Scouts or leaders. I don't like Uniform Police, which is what my original post was all about. Different troops work in different ways.

 

*****Bob White quote*****

The uniform is as important as any other method in achieving the aims of scouting. If you want to point a spotlight at the very few individuals who focus more on the the orientation of a knot rather than on the purpose of the method I agree. but to write-off the importance of the uniform as a method of scouting , which is how the original posts reads, is an inaccurate representation of the value of the uniform.And that was what bothered me.

****end quote****

 

My post focused on the few individuals. I don't believe I "wrote off" the uniform, what I "wrote off" was the Uniform Police.

 

I disagree with your interpretation of my post.

 

*****Bob White quote****

One last comment. In reference to your original post on this thread. Yes, how the methods are used will vary from unit to unit, but how the uniform is used and worn is controlled by BSA national policies.

*****end quote****

 

Did I say otherwise?

 

*****Bob White quote*****

The BSA is very specific that a unit, or individual, has no auhtority to determine what the uniform will consist of other than the options given them by the BSA. So while your unit can choose whether or not to wear a neckerchief, they cannot make the determination that in their unit a Scout Shirt will constitute a uniform. Read the Insignia Guide 2003-2005.

*****end quote*****

 

*****quote NATIONAL POLICY*****

"A boy is not required to have a uniform in order to be a Boy Scout. However, troop leaders should set a good example by wearing the uniform themselves and by encouraging each Scout to acquire and wear a uniform."

 

"The official uniforms of the Boy Scouts of America are those authorized by the organization's National Executive Board and are described in current handbooks, catalogues, and other official publications of the BSA."

"No alterations of, or additions to, the official uniform may be made by any Scout, leader, or Scouting official without permission from the National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America."

*****end quote NATIONAL POLICY*****

 

Where does it say a Scout is not allowed to wear a Scout shirt without official pants?

 

Wearing jeans is not altering any uniform part or adding to the uniform. It is simply an incomplete uniform. The BSA says a Scout should wear the uniform as complete and correct as possible. If he only has a shirt, he can only wear a shirt.

 

Now, given that statement, I have never said wearing a complete uniform is bad. I personally own multiple sets of complete official field uniforms with all insignia properly placed.

 

I challenge you to point out anywhere I've made any statement against wearing a complete field uniform.

 

I've only spoken in defense of those who don't have complete uniforms. I vehemently dislike Scouters who look down on those boys and judge them harshly.

 

I've also spoken in disgust about those who believe the Uniform method is higher than other methods and treat it as a Goal rather than a Method.

 

There are major differences in those things.

 

*****Bob White quote****

I agree that requiring a scout to have uniform pants to advance is a violation of the BSA advancement policies, but requiring him to be in as complete and correct uniform as possible is IN the policies.

*****end quote*****

 

Thank you for that Bob. We finally agree.

 

I apologize for yet another lengthy post.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois

(This message has been edited by cliffgolden)

[Fat Old Guy]

"The big picture people see the overall Scouting program and how it works. The little picture people see the little pieces and become preoccupied with the details, unable to comprehend the larger overall structure."

 

The "big picture" people that I know disregard the G2SS, think that "close enough" is "good enough" for advancement requirements and that the patrol method is just Dens with older boys, and are primarily interested in their son getting Eagle to enhance his college applications.

 

Most, not all, of the "little picture" people that I deal with realize that the big picture is a mosaic and that each little picture is important. It is important to meet advancement requirements so that everyone is playing by the same rules. It is important to follow the G2SS so you don't get your swinger caught in the door. It is important to use the patrol method properly so that the boys make decisions and mistakes and by doing so learn. It is so simple to wear the uniform properly that by refusing to do so means that you simply don't care.

[cliffgolden]

Hey Fscouter,

 

The survey I referenced had the majority of the troops wearing partial uniforms. I believe that's different from not wearing any uniform. They are using the Uniform Method, just not as well as some other troops. Perhaps the purpose of the survey is to examine the levels of various troops in accomplishing the Uniform Method. It's not my survey, so I'm only speculating.

 

If it were a camping survey instead, and some troops only camped during half the year, would they be accused of not using the Outdoor Method?

 

So would car camping be equivalent to a partial uniform, with high adventure camping equivalent to a full uniform. How do you evaluate Outdoor Method?

 

Do you grade the other Methods with the same exacting harshness as Uniform Method? Are you putting more importance on Uniform Method than the rest?

 

Various troops operate at various levels in all methods. Some have Eagle Scouts every year, some have never produced an Eagle. Because a unit isn't performing at each Method at the highest possible level doesn't mean the Method is not being employed and boys are not benefiting from the program. The aims can be met even when the unit operates less than perfect in all 8 Methods.

 

You ask why would any Scouter that supposedly supports the BSA program trivialize one of the eight methods? I really can't think of any reasons, can you?

 

By overindulging in one Method, does that not trivialize the other 7?

 

You ask why does the minimalist approach to uniforming support Scouting and further the program?

 

Well, there's a tough one.

 

Maybe in the inner city doing an outreach program might be more effective with a t-shirt approach to bring in more at-risk youth. I could see that.

 

During the depression, they suspended uniforming in many units. There are still be some suffering financial hardship out there. Our expensive uniforms might discourage people in the lower economic levels from becoming involved at all.

 

I suppose there could be many other reasons.

 

Fscouter, I have an interesting project for you to do, if you're up to the challenge.

 

Let's go to some official Scouting resources. See how many photos in Boys Life this month depict Scouts in full uniform and how many are depicted in less than full uniform? Then do the same with the Official Scout Handbook.

 

I predict you'll find most boys are depicted "not in uniform".

 

Maybe you could theorize for us how that supports Scouting and furthers the program?

 

After all, Boys Life and the Official Scout Handbook exist to support Scouting and further the program, don't they?

 

Well, some food for thought in any case.

 

BTW, I do own several field uniforms and all the insignia are correctly placed.

 

YIS,

Cliff Golden

Scoutmaster Troop 33

DeKalb, Illinois(This message has been edited by cliffgolden)