Loop Colors

[dsteele]

The things FOG points out are, in my mind, different than a minor uniform differentiation. They can cause real harm to a unit.

 

In the case of a pack that goes camping with no one trained in Baloo, I would hope the council would catch that on the tour permit and not approve the tour permit. There are liability risks that are being taken for breaking BSA policy. I would hope, in that case, that every step would be taken to try to get an adult in the pack trained in Baloo so the pack could go on the outing as planned.

 

In the case of a unit holding a raffle, it is in violation of BSA fund-raising policies and, in the event of legal action being taken against the unit, there would be no protection from the BSA. The raffle would have to stop.

 

DS

[Fat Old Guy]

dsteele said, "in the case of a pack that goes camping with no one trained in Baloo, I would hope the council would catch that on the tour permit and not approve the tour permit."

 

We are only required to submit a tour permit is the destination is 50 miles from home so no one knows that no one is BALOO trained.

 

In any case, we've been told that lack of a tour permit doesn't impact insurance coverage. If this is indeed the case, what is the reason behind the tour permit?

[scoutldr]

How about Rainbow loops...

 

No wait...wrong thread. Sorry.

[dsteele]

FOG said:

 

"We are only required to submit a tour permit is the destination is 50 miles from home so no one knows that no one is BALOO trained.

 

In any case, we've been told that lack of a tour permit doesn't impact insurance coverage. If this is indeed the case, what is the reason behind the tour permit?"

 

In both cases FOG mentioned above, the unit has been told the incorrect information. When a tour permit is required is stated in plain language on the Tour Permit itself. Ther is no mention of 50 miles. I don't have one in front of me, but there is a mis-interpretation of policy there.

 

Secondly, the lack of a Tour Permit does impact insurance coverage if what the unit is doing is in violation of BSA published policy.

 

DS

 

 

[fotoscout]

The black loops are worn only by official members of the BSA internal affairs department which investigates secret uniform violations of a punishable nature -- JUST KIDDING!

 

VERY Good... two points to DS!

[Proud Eagle]

OK. Let me attempt to explain and clarify what I said. (and request some clarification of the correction DSteele made)

 

When I looked up the information I referred to the uniform inspection sheet found on the supply division website. #34284 "Male Leader Uniform Inspection Sheet" Boy Scouts of America 2000

"A Scouter should wear the color shoulder loop of the position in which he is functioning."

The newest version of the uniform and insignia guide may differ from this, and if it does it would most likely superscede this. However, this is the best (and handiest) source I have available.

 

On the OA issue you seem to almost contradict yourself. If, for example, a Lodge Chief, is supposed to wear the loops for his primary registration that would seem to be either red or blaze loops. The reasoning being that an Arrowman's first responsibility (as an Arrowman) is to his troop. Also, I for one don't think the average Lodge Chief is (though they perhaps should be; -side issue- can a youth be registered in a council position?) actually registered in a Council position, even when they do serve on the Executive Board.

 

Also, I am not entirely certain that Area and Section really equate quite right. Areas, to the best of my knowledge, contain one or more sections. As an example, I believe I am in the Southern Region, Area 6. Area 6 is then divided into two Sections, 6 South and 6 North. DSteele may have been trying to simplify this for everyone, or perhaps I am mistaken.

 

Oh, as to another unauthorized set of shoulder loops-

Someone has created red shoulder loops with the old MGM Indian head OA logo embroidered on them. I was very annoyed to see a fellow member of the SR6N Council of Chiefs wearing them. I could understand the Lodge Chief position patch since that was once official and can still be authorized by an SE, as I understand it, but the unofficial loops on someone representing a Lodge of "Scouting's National Honor Society" bothered me a bit. Happily I now have nothing at all to do with Section matters.

 

Oh and the Section Chief shoulder loop comment is based on personal observations. Our immediate past Section Chief was given a set of gold loops by the Section Advisor to wear at the national OA meeting. (national planning conference? I don't remember the actual name) On the other hand all four section chiefs I have seen wore red loops during section functions. Maybe that is just something peculiar about our section, after all, Clay Capp did come out of our section...

[captainron14]

Back to the orginal thread...

I'm new in Venturing and with the Dark Green Shirt having Green Tabs does not stand out like the others. You would think that SOMEONE would have noticed by now. I have heard of other colors that would contrast better but no one taking it further. Any one else?

[Twocubdad]

Our past district commissioner used to make a big deal out of having a district uniform (silver loops, district committee or comissioner position patch and NO unit numerals) for district functions and another unit uniform (blue or red loops, unit position patch and numerals) when working with the your home unit. That makes sense if you spend enough time in both functions to justify two uniforms. I could see it if you are a district or council commissioner.

[OutdoorThinker]

CaptainIronRod, I agree completely with Venturing loops. Who came up with that? Our crew likes the idea of purple loops for Venturing, it goes well with green.

[Yak_Herder]

The proposal has been made and was well received. If I knew more about how to initiate sucha change I would pursue it further.

 

*****

 

VENTURING SHOULDER LOOP PROPOSAL

 

WHEREAS green shoulder loops on the forest green uniform shirt are barely visible, defeating any real purpose, and

WHEREAS the forest green shirt and the particular shade of green chosen for the shoulder loops also look poor alongside one another, and

WHEREAS with evolving uniform policy and despite clear statements to the contrary in the current uniform guide, green shoulder loops are commonly yet incorrectly worn on the khaki Boy Scout uniform shirt, and

WHEREAS the only form of Venturing recognition is some form of pinned on devise that proves unworkable in the field, and

WHEREAS significant revising the Sea Scouting uniform to include navy blue (black) shoulder loops has met with considerable resistance

IT IS PROPOSED that the color of the shoulder loops worn with the forest green Venturing uniform shirt be changed from green to white.

 

Background

Changing the Venturing shoulder loop color to white addresses each one of the problems mentioned.

As one of the colors associated with Venturing, yellow (gold) shoulder loop would perhaps be a more intuitive choice. However, as you well know, the BSA already utilizes that color.

White, the other color associated with Venturing (thinking of the Venturing flag) and a color used liberally on Venturing insignia is the logical choice. It is clearly visible on Venturing's forest green uniform shirt, and would contribute to the overall smart, crisp look of a Venturing uniform.

White shoulder loops would produce a side benefit- no one would tend to wear white shoulder loops on the khaki Boy Scout uniform.

An additional benefit is then made available- with green no longer being used, Venture Patrols would be free to use them without conflict. The problem of green shoulder loops being misused is thereby solved.

Other nagging issues could also be addressed.

1. Venturers continue to ask for a form of recognition reflecting accomplishments in Venturing that is neither a hanging medal nor a campaign style bar for everyday, field wear.

2. As part of the Venturing program, Sea Scouting uniform concerns need to be considered. The current controversy Sea Scouters are embroiled in regarding shoulder boards and navy blue (black) shoulder loops could be neatly side-stepped.

3. Shoulder loops employed by other Scouting organizations in the world are more elaborate and in some cases are actually becoming collectible. A change to white shoulder loops could take advantage of this draw.

How? Well, simply changing to white doesnt, but adding embroidered insignia (not pins) at the time of the change would.

Shoulder loops are clearly very inexpensive and easily made. Certainly the profit margin is adequate, and as Martha Stewart would say, "That's a good thing". Any proposal being made should preserve that advantage.

As I understand it, one of the ideas floating around the Sea Scout community (pun intended) is to add shoulder loops to the uniform and maybe even wear rank pins there. Those are interesting thoughts. I don't know how shoulder loops are to be worn on shirts that bear no epaulets, but I guess that is being worked out.

Perhaps a color change to the Venturing shoulder loops invites an opportunity. Sea Scouters could continue to wear the current uniform with shoulder boards, and when wearing Venturing's forest green/slate gray uniform could wear the white shoulder loops with the same rank insignia being discussed in those circles embroidered on them.

With a background in Navy uniform tradition, the Sea Scouters opposition to shoulder loops is understandable. Personally, I see no reason to eliminate shoulder boards as an option. Let's face it, Sea Scouters are still going to wear shoulder boards anyway. Old uniform fashions are completely valid wear even after being superceded by new ones.

The suggestion for white shoulder loops takes on a slightly stronger momentum with those changes. White is a color Sea Scouters should be able to accept.

Why not offer white shoulder loops with a symbol embroidered on them representing bronze, gold and silver award recognition? No pins, no fuss, and they don't get lost in the field. The supply division stocks a few more items, so inventory rises a bit, but they are cheap and in the end it means increased sales. How can they refuse that?

Embroidery is inexpensive and if done well can add greatly to the perceived value of the item. The swappers at Jamb-o-rees will love it. Yet again, white proves itself a good choice as it is an excellent color for the background material for needlework.

 

*****

[captainron14]

Great post Yak.

Now how can "WE" get National to open their eyes and do something?

 

[Yak_Herder]

Well, I dunno.

 

I sent it to Brad Allen in the Venturing Division before he left the professional ranks of Scouting to teach Scouting on a University level. He seemed to like the proposal and reportee to me that he had forwarded it to the appropriate committee. He was frank in acknowledging that change in the BSA is terribly difficult to affect. I have seen no other acknowledgement.

 

When I heard that the new religious life award that will be released next Summer was conceived of and designed by the youth participants in Venturing, I thought they might be of some help. So far I have had little response from them. Josh (the Western Region President) has indicated he wold like to discuss it further but we haven't gotten together on it yet.

 

Other than that, I have no idea how to affect change. If I did, I would do something about the silly pants design.

[OldGreyEagle]

You guys ever hear of Bill Evans? He is Associate Director of Venturing. Why not let him know how you feel about the loops.

 

E-Mail him at

 

bevans@netbsa.org

[KA6BSA]

If Venturing had white loops then maybe we would not need the big white redundant Venturing patch on the right sleeve... that is there only to tell everyone who doesn't know it is a Venturing uniform. There is already embroidery above the right pocket for the same purpose. Can you imagine Boys Scouts being required to wear a conspicuous 3 by 3 inch "Boy Scouts" patch on their right sleeve?

[Fat Old Guy]

"If Venturing had white loops then maybe we would not need the big white redundant Venturing patch on the right sleeve..."

 

I've wondered about the purpose of that patch. Isn't there an official admonition to keep the uniform uncluttered?

 

Oh well, I suppose that since it is in the Insignia Guide, the patch must make perfect sense and if we question it, we are disloyal.