Camoflauge

[Fat Old Guy]

I know that this has been hammered to death but I'm too lazy to dig around in the archives.

 

Can anyone cite an authoritative BSA document that prohibits the wearing of camoflauge during a Scout activity.

 

 

This much I know:

The BSA regs say that the uniform cannot mimic a military uniform but can't apply to my BDU pants because they are not part of the BSA uniform.

 

It is not a crime for a civilian to wear a part or parts of a military uniform unless he attempts to gain access to a military facility.

 

It is a crime for a service member to wear his BDU pants with his Scout shirt.

 

If you open a Cabela's catalog, you'll see pages of camoflauge that have nothing to do with the military.

 

 

[KA6BSA]

Your "known facts" on the camo issue have me chuckling! We recently beat this topic to death in our troop commmittee meeting for several months. The Scoutmaster was taking a hard line on camo, even on just an immitation boonie hat that could keep a Scout from getting a sunburn on a hike, and there were a few kids that regularly wore everything camo. They were otherwise fine Scouts and great attenders on all the outings. Camo was the only clothes they ever wore, to school, to church, everywhere, and now they were going to be excluded from troop campouts because of it.

 

Throughout this entire beating of this topic by our committee lots of people did research on it and only found the one wimpy out-of-date reference to it in the front of Insignia Guide: Protection of Uniforms (b) "Imitation of United States Army, Navy, or Marine Corps uniforms is prohibited, in accordance with the provisions of the organization's Congressional Charter." I think that is already part of your known facts so sorry it doesn't help. Mike Walton has a whole gory section on camo even to the point of how to document throwing someone out of a Camporee for wearing camo (have the DE write a letter of revocation of membership, and then they have to get different pants and beg to come back and pay their dues again). When I was a Scout in 1957 we relied on cheap plentiful WW II Army surplus gear for almost everything in Scouts and nobody cared then: canteens, tents (with no floors!), shovels (to dig those big ditches around the tents), backpacks, flashlights, knives, hatchets, etc. The hatchets and that stuff were not really camo, just mostly green, but still official military US issue... and very important because us boys knew the real difference between 2nd and 1st Class Scout was another whole loop throwing your hatchet into the big tree in camp.

 

Our committee finally settled the argument by having a big-shot at our council email us they had a council-level policy of everybody trying to look like Boy Scouts not the youth liberation army. It was pretty flimsy just a memo written from one big-shot to another across the room in the office there. The boys with the camo got some new pairs of black Dickies pants and got to go on all the campouts, and the Scoutmaster is happy he gets to still say no camo.

 

I still find it very amusing (I am laughing right now!) that the troop committee chair is a woman that likes to always wear sophisticated colorful floral-pattern blouses to the meetings, just like the glamo-camo that is marketed to teenage girls at Nordstroms. When I meekly pointed that out everyone was quick to disagree with me. Even the Scoutmaster would not touch that one!

[JimmyD]

Only tim when our kids wear camo is when there playing hides. No uniform shirt on.

[KA6BSA]

JimmyD- What is "playing hides"? Sounds like a game of beating on a drum or something. And with no shirt on, that is a real Normal Rockwell Scouting image! Maybe the camo would be an improvement?

[dsteele]

I really don't know where the alleged prohibition on camo comes from. I found the reference to military looks, but nothing more than that. I do know that either you're in uniform or you are not, but if you're out of uniform, I don't know why camo can't be worn on a Scouting outing.

 

Good thing I don't have to know everything, isn't it? We'd all be in big trouble if I did.

 

DS

[packsaddle]

While it probably doesn't satisfy Fat Old Guy as an authority, this is the url that usually pops up for this topic:

http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/camo.htm

Warning, it is a really long page.

I don't have strong feelings on this subject. The problem that occurs around my region is when the camel's nose gets in, the rest is soon to follow. What that means is, let them wear camo, then say 'goodbye' to much of the uniform and later 'hello' to t-shirts with the confederate flag. So I try to hold the line. I like the uniform, its fit and feel. It levels the field and, despite grousing in other threads, it looks good.

[Fat Old Guy]

Actually, I've read Mike's web page and one of our committee members has discussed it with Mike. The important points are that only members of the military are prohibited by law from wearing BDU parts with parts of the Scout uniform. Nothing would prohibit them from wearing a complete BDU unless they were behaving improperly for a member of the armed forces.

 

Also, that paragraph from the regs cited by Mr. Walton can be interpreted many ways. The Scout uniform is what cannot look military. Blue jeans aren't part of the uniform and neither are BDU pants.

 

Then we also have the comments from Man O'Steele, nearly as authoratative as you can get. Mr. Steele considers it an "alleged" prohibition on camouflage.

 

I'll go with Mr. Steele.

[dsteele]

Please allow me to comment on Col. Mike Walton --

 

I love the guy. I have read several of his posts on USScouts.org and think he has a marvelous understanding of the Scouting program and a much greater understanding of the U.S. Military than I do. But I simply can not find a prohibition of camoflauge in BSA literature.

 

I'll change my tune if one is pointed out to me, but until then, to me it does not exist.

 

It's like anything I read on any "unofficial" forum dealing with the Boy Scouts of America -- Scouts-L, Scouter.com (my favorite), USScouts.org, etc. Until a document from the national office crosses my desk with the information, it's all speculation.

 

Even my opinions, when voiced as opinions, which is why I humbly accept accolades with a grain of salt.

 

If I see something officially that will clarify an opinion, I will quote it. Until then, you get my thoughts for better or worse.

 

In the meantime, God Bless Mike Walton. Kudos to you sir.

 

DS

[KA6BSA]

DSteele you are right there is only one Boy Scout uniform. Many folks in our troop had a serious misconception about that because the previous Scoutmaster had always referred to Class-A uniform (the full BSA uniform) and the Class-B uniform. The Class-B of course is not a real uniform but just a troop-approved "activity outfit" consisting of some appropriate pants and the troop T-shirt or a BSA theme T-shirt from camp or wherever. The idea is to look civilized with no skulls with daggers thru the eyes, no mega-death band logos with dripping blood, etc on the activity outfit. They got so wrapped up in this "Class-B uniform" concept that if a boy wore some camo or a shirt with swear words on it he was "out of uniform." And those were fightin' words for the Scoutmaster... so he started ranting about camo as if it was a BSA violation of uniform. Really it was just not following the guidelines for the troop activity outfit as determined by the troop committee. Of course there are still the other issues about what looks "good" and what doesn't when all the monkeys are swinging from the trees on a campout. But they finally understood that no matter whether you call it Class-A or Class-Z there is just one Boy Scout uniform.

[Fat Old Guy]

"DSteele you are right there is only one Boy Scout uniform."

 

Actually, there are two current Boy Scout uniforms. There is the field uniform of khaki shirt, green pants or shorts, scout belt, neckerchief and scout cap that so many call the "Class A." There is also the "activity uniform" which is the red "activity shirt," green pants or short, scout belt and scout socks that many class a "Class B."

 

Funny isn't it that when so many are crying about camouflage and military appearance that these same people use military terms for identifying the different uniforms.

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

"Please allow me to comment on Col. Mike Walton -- "

 

It's Lt. Col. Mike Walton. Big difference. :-)

 

Usually, Walton cites historic or current references to support what he says but this time he doesn't. :-( Aiiiiieeeee! His feet are made of clay!

[Bob White]

There are three Scout uniforms,

The Field Uniform, Tan Scout uniform shirt, Green scout uniform pants or shorts, Scout belt, Scout socks, optional hat and nckerchiefs.

 

Activity Uniform, Any scouting related polo or t-shirt, green scout uniform pants or shorts, scout socks, scout belt.

 

The Dress Uniform that includes Scout dress slacks, Blazer and Tie.

 

Note that none include jeans or camo.

 

Bob White

[KoreaScouter]

We've debated this one extensively in this forum. Some new nuggets have popped up in this thread though, so I thought I'd weigh in.

 

First, even if somebody came up with an authoritative reference that said they were okay, why would any of us condone, let alone encourage it? The uniform is one of the eight methods, and collectively as leaders, we should be encouraging and modeling it's full wear. Do we allow substitutes for the patrol method, or some other set of advancement requirements? Then, why give a wink/nod to BDUs?

 

There are complicated sets of rules on military uniform wear, not just by military people either. BDUs are appropriate (and legal) in certain settings off a military base, not in others. Stopping for gas, okay. Going to church, not okay. This is a work/utility uniform, and we're supposed to wear it only where mechanics coveralls would be appropriate. Different branches of service have slightly different interpretations, and base commanders can have more restrictive rules for their installations. Why get caught up in that?

 

Catalogs and surplus stores sell military items, including BDUs. These items are supposed to be "de-milled", that is, rank and other insignia removed before they're re-sold. I have been taught by military instructors in a long past training course, that it's a violation of the U.S. Code (please don't ask me which section/chapter, I don't have the U.S. Code at my house, or in my office for that matter) for civilians to wear military uniforms with the insignia on them. Many complicated reasons for that, too, going back to the 19th century, Civil War Reconstruction, Posse Comitatus Act, and current reasons with the War on Terrorism. The full BSA uniform identifies you as a Scout/Scouter. Military BDUs mixed with a BSA shirt or some other clothing introduces cases of mistaken identity -- not something we want.

 

To me, this whole thing is a symptom. So many people want to wear BDU pants because they think they fit & wear better than the official pants, that they're more functional, and they're certainly more affordable. If there was an official pants option that did all that (green, khaki, camo, or polka-dotted), we wouldn't be having this discussion, probably.

 

KS

[Bob White]

Sure we would KS, it would just be with different posters or with different complaints.

ewven if the BSA offered additional options you just cannot please 6 million people plus.

 

There will be tens of thousands who don't like the pattern of the camo, want the tan cammo not the green, or the new bit-map camo or the old traditional. Plus there will be thousands more complaining about "why did we change from the old uniform I grew up with". 20-years from now there will be the same scouters who are complaining now, saying that we should have stayed with the uniform we had before we went to the camo. BDU's would be no different.

 

You raise a good point, the uniform is what the uniform is. We should wear it because it is the official uniform of the scouting program. When it changes, wear the new uniform. Until then we should wear it correctly and be proud of what it represents.

 

Bob White

[JimmyD]

Hides is playing "Blacky" or capture the flag.