Philmont patch..

[Kahuna]

It is an urban legend. It is also a tradition of a sort. If you go to Philmont with your bull patch on the jacket, nobody from the staff will grab you and say, "I see you have or haven't climbed the whatever."

 

Most veteran Philmont staffers don't seem to wear the bull at all. I never sewed mine on. I do notice that Joe Davis, age 95, is wearing a jacket with a bull in pictures in the current staff association journal, but you can't tell how the tail is positioned. Joe, btw, was director of Philmont in the 1960's and early '70's,

[ChiefThundercloud]

I attended the Philmont Training Center several years ago. I bought the bull patch and was told by the person who sold it to me that it should be sewn as indicated in the many responses above. It can be worn by anyone who has been to Philmont. The tail should be sewn on over the shoulder if one has been to the Tooth of Time, otherwise, it should be kept nearer the body of the bull. The arrowhead patch was reserved for the trek participants.

 

We were not allowed to climb the Tooth, so I have my bull's tail near his body. I do have a Philmont Arrowhead (I bought a Scout shirt with one attached from a thrift store), that patch is safely in my Troop's Scouting museum.

 

Right or wrong, that's my story.

[eagle1977]

Bob White says "Seems if enough scouters do the wrong thing for a long enough period of time...before you know it...you got yourself a 'tradition'."

 

Seems this is turning into a knock down drag out fight. Certinly not my intent when I replied to this thread. However, I am not entirely sure the harm done by following what you believe to be true, especailly when nearly every respondent has the same story about why they placed the bull as they did. I, personally, meant no disrespect to the BSA.

 

[Bob White]

No fight was inplied nor was it omplied that any direspect was shown to the BSa or anyone or anything else. The fact is that there is nor BSA "tradition" of the tail of the bull going over the shoulder if you climbed the Tooth of Time or any other peak at Philmont. It simply is not true and it was never a uniform rule or guideline in the BSA.

 

The bull goes over the pocket on the left side of the jacket, where you want to put the tail is up to you. Why you put it there is up to your choice as it ios not stipulated by the BSA in any way.

 

It's simply about being accurate and not continuing to spread incorrect information.

 

 

[eagle1977]

While you say that you implied no harm you continue to imply that those of us that wear the bull over the shoulder are doing it wrong. Also, you directly say that we are spreading false information.

 

As I have stated previously, I was informed by the staff at the Tooth of Time Traders on how to wear the patch. I think from having read the posts here that I was not alone. We were simply following what we thought was a "tradition". Perhaps the staff should be told to stop their suggestions!

[Gold Winger]

"It simply is not true and it was never a uniform rule or guideline in the BSA."

 

Traditions do not need to be based on a rule and usually aren't. There's no rule that requires that a bride toss her bouquet or the groom her garter but it is tradition. There is no rule that families put up a Christmas tree in December but it is tradition. There is no rule that motorcyclists wave at each other when they pass but it is tradition.

 

Sometimes, tradition takes on something akin to the force of law such as in some societies, you wouldn't think of courting a young woman before asking her father's permission. It isn't the law, it is tradition but breaking that tradition could get you a drubbing.

 

In fact, I would argue that if it is required by rule or law, it cannot be tradition. On that basis, bull placement is governed by rule and modified by tradition.

[Bob White]

Eagle1977 you have totally miusunderstood my pots. At no time did I say that wearing the tail over over the shoulder was wrong. What I posted was that you can put the tail whever you want because there are no traditions or regultaions regarding the placement of the tail. One does not have had to climb the Tooth or any other object at Philmont to place the tail over the shoulder. That is not a Scouting tradition it is an urban legend that has been passed down throughout the years by scouters sharing incorrect information.

 

It is no different from other urban legends in scouting such as ...you have to be in uniform on a trip for insurance to be in effect, you have to complete a partial merit badge within a year, and fixed blade knives are prohibited by the BSA.

 

These are all examples of misinformation that have been repeated for years that some scouters even today think are correct. Saying the wrong thing repeatedly does not make it right nor does ot make it a tradition in the program. It is just something that a lopt of people are wrong about.

 

Wear the tail on the bull whever you want it does not signify ANYTHING.

 

[Bob White]

OOPS

 

"Eagle1977 you have totally miusunderstood my pots."

 

Should have been "Eagle1977 you have totally misunderstood my posts"

 

Sorry about that (This message has been edited by Bob White)

[BadenP]

Well it looks like the uniform police are at it again, lol.

 

There is a long time scouter in my council that wears the bull, the loon and the shark all on his jacket, and he is proud to have been to all three bases. In addition he wears a variety of international scouting patches from international events he has attended. The kids and adults love to hear his stories. Am I going to be petty enough to tell him his jacket is not in line with the insignia guide, HECK NO. This man has devoted his life to scouting and has done a lot to motivate and recharge adult leaders and scouts in the council, and IMHO I don't know of any other scouter that personifies the ideals of scouting more than this man.

 

There is an old adage that says, "We are only as big as the things that get us upset." It amazes me at the one or two individuals who are always so quick to point fingers and quote guidelines because it gives them a sense of superiority. So quit sweating the small stuff and concentrate on producing a quality life experience for your scouts that is what is important, not how you or what you put on a red jacket, which IMHO should not even be regulated or considered to be part of the official BSA uniform.

[Gold Winger]

" Saying the wrong thing repeatedly does not make it right nor does ot make it a tradition in the program. It is just something that a lopt of people are wrong about."

 

There's a difference. Your examples were things that are contrary to the existing rules.

 

"Wear the tail on the bull whever you want it does not signify ANYTHING."

 

Sure it does, you just don't get it.

 

" It amazes me at the one or two individuals who are always so quick to point fingers and quote guidelines because it gives them a sense of superiority. "

 

I believe that those who claim "I don't let the little things bother me, I'm bigger than that" do that to have a sense of superiority

[eagle1977]

Bob White you said, "Wear the tail on the bull whever you want it does not signify ANYTHING." I think that is where the problem lies. To many of us that have been to Philmont, on a trek, it does signify something. As has been stated by many of the participants of this thread we were told by the staff at the Tooth of Time Trading post how to wear it depending upon how we treked. We did not simply make it up.

 

I did not decide with malice to sew the bull's tail over the shoulder. It was never my intention to disregard a uniform policy. I simply did it because I was instructed to. What else was a 15 year old scout susposed to think.

[Bob White]

Eagle1977

No one said that you have violated any uniform poicy, nor has anyone said that you sewed the bull incorrectly, or that you purposely sewed it incorrectly.

 

If you have the bull on the left side of the jacket above the pocket then you did it right.

 

If you sewed the tail of the bull over the seam you did it right, If you DIDN'T sew the tail over the seam you did it right. There is no meaning to the position of the bull's tail so as long as the bull is on the left side over the pocket you did it correctly and NO NONE has posted otherwise.

 

The only comment that I and others have made is that that there is no significance to the position if the tail.

 

I'm sure that in the years that have past since you were 15 years old you have learned about other things that you were told as a youth that are not true. I am sure that in your training as a scout leader and a professional scouter you also learned that the BSA program and its traditions are not determined by clerks at a scout shop in New Mexico.

 

The tail of the bull's tail is an urban legend. It simply is not true that you must climb the Tooth in order to sew the tail in a pparticular position. You were misinformed. There was no way that as a 15 year old you would have known.

 

The question now becomes, do you know now, and will you choose to continue passing along the false information or will you help others to understand when they have been misinformed?

 

The only tradition we seem to run into on a regular basis here is that some scouters choose to accept wives tales that have no actual substantiation in any BSA training or resource, but contiually ignore facts that are supported by the BSA dispite all the evidence.

 

I do not think anyone is upset about this topic, but some of us are amazed at the length that some people will go to cling to the wrong information simply because they are comfortable with it.

 

BadenP

There are no uniform police. the BSa has always relied on the individual integrity of each person to wear the uniform correctly.

 

I am sure the veteran scouter you speak of is a fine fellow in many ways. He simply has chosen to wear the uniform incorrectly. Certainly if there were uniform poice they would have done something about it over these many years. But no one has because there are no uniform police, there is juyst an individuals choice to do things right or do them wrong. Your local scouter chose to wear the uniform wrong. That does not mean that others need to make the same choice, it does mean howver that his incorrect example will likely confuse others who, because of his tenure, have assumed that he would wear his uniform correctly.

 

But we know that is not always the case.

 

 

 

 

 

[eagle1977]

Bob White said, "The only comment that I and others have made is that that there is no significance to the position [o]f the tail."

 

I will have to respectfully agree to disagree with you because it has significance for me.

[Bob White]

That's fine Eagle1977, no one has said that you cannot believe in the legend, Only that the BSA places no validity in it. You are welcome to whatever comfort you find in the misinformation, I would hope though that now that you have learned that it is an urban legend that as with other urban legends in scouting you will consider not spreading the misinformation to others.

 

BW

[Gold Winger]

"The only tradition we seem to run into on a regular basis here is that some scouters choose to accept wives tales that have no actual substantiation in any BSA training or resource, "

 

BeeDubya, BeeDubya, BeeDubya. . . please be consistent. If, in your mind, there is no tradition regarding the bull because it is not mentioned in official BSA publications then can be no tradition regarding wives tales unless those tales are reported in official BSA documentation, available to the general membership.

 

BTW, would those tales be from old wives or new wives?