Philmont patch..

[Gold Winger]

"The only tradition we seem to run into on a regular basis here is that some scouters choose to accept wives tales that have no actual substantiation in any BSA training or resource, "

 

BeeDubya, BeeDubya, BeeDubya. . . please be consistent. If, in your mind, there is no tradition regarding the bull because it is not mentioned in official BSA publications then can be no tradition regarding wives tales unless those tales are reported in official BSA documentation, available to the general membership.

 

BTW, would those tales be from old wives or new wives?

[eagle1977]

Bob White said, "I am sure that in your training as a scout leader and a professional scouter you also learned that the BSA program and its traditions are not determined by clerks at a scout shop in New Mexico.

 

The tail of the bull's tail is an urban legend. It simply is not true that you must climb the Tooth in order to sew the tail in a pparticular position. You were misinformed. There was no way that as a 15 year old you would have known.

 

The question now becomes, do you know now, and will you choose to continue passing along the false information or will you help others to understand when they have been misinformed?"

 

I have never implied that I am or ever was a professional scouter. I am quite simply a person that felt transformed by youth scouting experience and have a desire to pass that on to my son. I do not find comfort in any misinformation, as you see fit to call it. I do, however, relish my experience at Philmont and to me that includes the bull's placement on my jacket.

 

As to the traditions of Scouting, I am currently at a loss to respond effectively because I have been out of the game for quite some time. If you will be kind enough to give me a little time I will respond in a separate thread. I am quite sure, though, with a little bit of digging around one could probably find a groundswell among the scouting community that turned into an official policy. Like maybe the right pocket flap being "reserved" for a lodge patch . . ."Let's stop right here. The Order of the Arrow, Scouting's national camping and service honorary, has established that the right pocket flap of Boy Scout and Scouter uniforms is where they want Order of the Arrow insignia and ONLY on that location. Why?? It has to do with the traditions of the Order of the Arrow and there is a justification for wearing the flap on the right side of the uniform." (http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/rfront.htm)

 

Seems that mentions tradition.

 

 

[ljnrsu]

Eagle1977, I agree with you that the placement of the bulls tail is a tradition not a "legend" as others have said. IMHO its a tradition for two reasons.

It's placement is not contrary to any current BSA rules,regulations,policies or procedures. As BW has said the BSA has no rule on its placement. The other is how long Scouts and Scouters have been told by Philmont trading post employees of how the tail is placed. I was told the same thing in 1971 when I purchased the bull after my trek. That because we hiked over the Tooth of Time we could place the tail over the shoulder.

Since Philmont opened in 1939 for camping that makes this year its 69th year and the over the shoulder tail position has been around for at least 37 years therefore in my eyes it's not "legend" but tradition.

 

Lou

711-E-4 (1971)

 

edit for content(This message has been edited by ljnrsu)

[Toby Weber]

Does anyone know if there are now plans for a green wool jac-shirt?

 

My lovely bride washed my red one. Speaking of the bull: The jac-shirt shrunk, but the bull did not.

[Gold Winger]

According to someone on this forum, the red jacket was being discontinued in favor of a green one. One indication was that the red jacket was put in the clearance section but, to confuse things, it is no longer a clearance item.

 

If you want a replacement jacket, you can find nice ones on ebay for less than half of the cost of a new one.

[BadenP]

Wanna bet that if BW had hiked over the Tooth that his bull's tail would be over his left shoulder, lol. Seriously though I also was told the same thing, not from a store clerk but from a professional philmont staffer, and just because it is not in some book doesn't make it wrong or just an urban legend. BW, just because that scouter in my council chooses to wear his jacket the way he does does not make him wrong or less of a scouter, I am willing to bet that if you could you would probably tell Baden-Powell that he was uniformed incorrectly as well, lol. Why do some people love to always point out what they feel is wrong with other people, is that what scouting is all about??

[Bob White]

Actually BadenP the tail of the Bull on my jacket is over the seam and I have not crossed the Tooth of Time. I have however been to Philmont on several occassions as the Director of the Trainining Center explained to everyone at the orientation meeting that they are eligible to wear the Bull, and that the position of the tail has no meaning and that only wearing it over the shoulder seam if you have crowwed the Tooth is just an urban legend.

 

But then again he isn't a store clerk so why pay any attention to anything he might say?

 

Evidently seasonal employees working at gift shops are the best sources of information on Scouting "traditions". Who knew?

 

 

 

[eagle1977]

Okay, Bob White, you win. I am going to concede your point. I realize now that most of my youth career in Scouting was simply an exercise in "urban legends". Even my Bobcat badge was pinned on me upside down with my Den Leader intructing my parents when to turn it upright. I will simply quietly remember to myself my adventures at Philmont.

 

Hmmm, I wonder if the admonition I heard whispered to me during my Ordeal was simply an urban legend, too!

[Gold Winger]

"Hmmm, I wonder if the admonition I heard whispered to me during my Ordeal was simply an urban legend, too!"

 

No because that is written down in BSA literature.

 

I do find it interesting that a person canwear a bull just because he sat in a classroom. Oh well, my son and I have our arrowhead patchs.

[Bob White]

No one said that everything you have learned was an urban legend, however it is likely that some of the things you learned or remember are. We have discussed many of these in past thread. Things like having to be in uniform on trips for insurance coverage, fixed blade knives being prohibited, parents being prohibited from counseling their sons on merit badges, Scouts having to finish merit badges in a year, and the Philmont bull's tail over the shoulder seam meaning you have climbed the Tooth are just some of those urban legends other wise known as misinformation or falsehoods.

 

What I do not not understand is why you be upset about knowing the truth, rather than be happy that you have learned something new. It was the same with some leaders learned that patrols can go camping on their own, rather than embrace the opportunity they looked for reasons to not allow it. They were more comfortable following the misinformation than embracing the truth.

 

AS far as who can wear the Philmont Bull, prhaps GW and others were unaware that Philmont exits because Waite Phillips insisted it be used as a Training Center so thousands of adults who have attended the Training side are as much a part of Philmont as those that have walked its trails.

[Gold Winger]

That's the first I've heard of that and it isn't mentioned in the official BSA website on Philmont history.

 

" In this spirit, he offered 35,857 acres of his ranch to the Boy Scouts of America in 1938 to serve as a national wilderness camping area."

 

It doesn't say "camping and training center." I did find a reference to that idea in an unofficial history of Philmont so, by your own standards, that makes it no more than an urban legend.(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

[Kahuna]

True as to the Villa Philmonte, not true as to the rest of the gift. It was intended as place to hike and camp. The Villa was intended as a training center.

 

Some of us have spent some years on Philmont staff and and as members of the staff association.

 

Not everything is taught at the Training Center. Most of those folks come in for a summer and go away.

[Gold Winger]

Kahuna, I'm really sorry but by BeeDubya's standards, your statements fall into the category of urban myth. ;-)

[Bob White]

GW

You are in no position to be able to comment on what other peoples standards might be. You usede a partial quote from a portion of the Philmont history to support your misinformation. The Philmont training Center has been in operation for almost 60 years and is a much a part of Philmont as the trek side.

 

It is okay that you do not get why anyone who participates at Philmont is able to waer the Philmont Bull. Thankfully none of the BSA program information rests on whether or not YOU get it.

 

I too was a member of the Philmont Staff Association, and I do not determine what the correct way to wear the bull's tail is anymore than the store clerk, who was also more than likely a member of the staff association.

 

To be a member of the Philmont Staff Association you need to have served on staff or faculty and pay the dues.

 

For GW to suggest that just because some of the things you hear from scouters is incorrect that everything is incorrect is absurd. If you want to know the correct way to wear the Philmont Bull read the Insignia Guide. There is no BSA endorsed rules or "tradition" regarding the position of the tail. In the future should you need correct information on the price of a Scout t-shirt I recommend you ask a scout store clerk. For just about anything else there are far more accurate resources available.

 

 

 

[Gold Winger]

"You are in no position to be able to comment on what other peoples standards might be."

 

You told us what your standards are, as you often have.

 

" There is no BSA endorsed rules or "tradition" "

 

You really don't understand the meaning of tradition, do you?