When did the AOL move?

[Fat Old Guy]

Where did I get a six year old quote from Mike Walton? Just where I said that I got it, from rec.scouting.usa.

 

I don't know Mr. Walton but he's always backed his statements up with references from the Supply Division, memos to Scout Executives, etc.. From reading his postings on rec.scouting.usa and his web site, he seems to have access to some obscure reference material.

 

Bob White, you and others have quoted the Insignia Guide and Inspection Sheets but you haven't told me where it states that Scouts may elect to wear the old green uniform. It certainly doesn't state that in the Insignia guide, on the inspection sheet, in the Scoutmaster's Handbook or the Scout Handbook. Why do you refuse to believe that something outside your ken may exist?

[Bob White]

Page one of the Insignia Guide Book, heading; Official Uniforms, Clause 2, explains that the official uniform "Shall be those appoved by the action of the Executive Board of the BSA from time to time, as illustrated and correctly described in the handbooks, catalogs and other official publications of the BSA."

 

So any uniform approved at one time by the executive board and described in BSA literature is an official uniform. Any scout can wear the official uniform of the program he is in, nothing says it must be current. The only diffence is that the historic uniforms are no longer in production but they still meet the qualifications for official.

 

So again this is not scouting according to Bob, or scouting according to Mike, or even scouting according to FOG. It is scouting according to the Boy Scouts of America.

 

If you have any further difficulty understanding the program or its elements please feel free to post a question. There are numerous knowledgable scouts and scouters on this forum who will be happy to assist you.

 

Thanks for your question,

Bob White

[Bob White]

Iterestingly here is what is said my Mike at rec.scouting.usa...

" The content of this newsgroup is NOT to be accepted as "official

information" coming from American Scouting organizations, as such

information comes normally through their national offices through

regional groups to local organizations for distribution to units and

members"

 

So even Mike says to go by the official BSA resources. I agree with him.

 

Bob White

[Fat Old Guy]

Sorry Bob, Mr. Walton didn't write what you quoted. That is from the rec.scouting.usa charter.

 

"Page one of the Insignia Guide Book, heading; Official Uniforms, Clause 2, explains that the official uniform Shall be those appoved by the action of the Executive Board of the BSA from time to time, as illustrated and correctly described in the handbooks, catalogs and other official publications of the BSA.

 

By your own standards, that bird don't fly. You tell us that we should get the program from the current publications and not the old ones. Show me a current catalog, handbook or other publication that shows the old green uniform.

 

And once again Bob White shows that the Scout Law is meaningless to him.

 

[Bob White]

The link I followed had Mike's name on it. Either way the site says is not for use as official information ,which is exactly what you have done. It directs you to Official BSA publications.

 

I said you will find the current program in the current handbooks. That being the case you will also find the current uniform in the current handbook. The clause I quoted from the current insignia guide states that once a uniform piece is approved by the executive board and published it is an official uniform. It may not be current but it is still official.

 

I rely don't understand why you attack when I am just posting what's in the BSA publications? I really cannot understand your attitude.

 

Bob White

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[SR540Beaver]

FOG said, "I haven't seen any Cub Scout swelling with pride when they put on a tan shirt. It seems to be, "Ho hum. Mom bought me a new shirt."

 

You obviously don't know the boys in our pack.

[NJCubScouter]

It's kind of jarring to see a thread for the first time after it has already split into three or four sub-threads. So here is what I have to say about all of it, or at least some of it.

 

I know my son's Arrow of Light (sorry, to me AOL still means an online service) is below his pocket. If nobody had said otherwise I would have thought that was where it always was. When I get home tonight I am going to check my old uniform hanging in my closet (circa 1973, I think it is one of the ones that has "Scouts BSA" on the strip above the pocket because they didn't want to say "Boy Scouts," which didn't last long.) I am pretty sure that my youth rank patches are on there, which should include the Arrow of Light.

 

(The last time I looked at that shirt I realized that I continued to wear the same shirt after I turned 18 and was an Assistant Scoutmaster, and yet the shirt still has my Life badge and the position patch is JASM, not ASM. Apparently, I was not properly uniformed for awhile there, but since this was 27 years ago, I'm hoping that the statute of limitations has expired.)

 

As I believe Bob said, the tan (a/k/a khaki-tan) shirt with blue loops is an option for Webelos, emphasis on both "option" and "Webelos." It is supposed to be an individual option, though on one or two Scouting discussion groups (maybe not here) I have seen references to requiring an entire pack or den to make the choice. That should not happen. It is supposed to be up to the parents and the boy. That is one of the things my son's old pack did (and does) correctly.

 

As for a boy having the attitude "ho hum, Mom bought me a new shirt," I would ask, did anybody tell him otherwise? Did his parents bother to explain the meaning of the shirt? Nothing formal, just, this is the shirt you will wear when you are a Boy Scout, and because Webelos gets you ready for Boy Scouts, you start wearing the shirt now, but with blue shoulder loops? (Or words to that effect.) That's what I did when I got my son the tan shirt. I actually went further and gave it to him at a time that had a particular meaning. He wore the blue shirt into the fourth grade, and sometime around December ('01) or January ('02) my wife informed me that it was time for a new shirt anyway. (Evidently she felt that his wrists beginning to protrude further and further out the sleeve did not make the proper fashion statement.) So when he received his Webelos badge around February, I got the Cubmaster to get him the new optional oval patch (as well as the old diamond patch which I reimbursed the pack the buck-whatever for, just to have the complete "diamond"), and the weekend after that we went out and got the tan shirt, and I explained the whole thing about Boy Scouts and oval patches and shoulder loops and everything so he would understand what it was all about. I think he actually was proud of the new shirt, because someone bothered to explain it to him.

 

Now, I guess a parent who is neither a leader nor a former Boy Scout might not be able to bombard their son with all this information. So I think it is something the Webelos leader needs to explain to the parents, who can explain it to the boys. (I would say the leader should explain it to the boys, but I hesitate to say that because it is an optional item that costs around $30 and I don't necessarily think we want to be giving the boys a "commercial" that then translates into yet another "I want" from the boy to the parents. Of course, if the tan shirt ever becomes standard and not optional for Webelos, then that will be different: You're going into fourth grade, you get this shirt. I think that within 3 to 5 years, this will probably be the case. At some point they are going to run out of the orange shirts for Tigers and then make the decision either to order more, or start making the blue shirts in sizes to fit 6-year-olds, making the blue shirt standard for Tigers. At that point I would not be surprised if they stop making whatever the largest size is for the blue shirt and decree that all Webelos will wear the tan shirt. It would make sense because if you do what a lot of people do, you buy the blue shirt a little large at the beginning of second grade and it lasts somewhere into the fourth grade, so in my theory you would buy the shirt a little large® at the beginning of first grade, and hopefully it fits through the end of third grade. Yeah, I know, if need be you can always buy another shirt, but I think most people would rather not.)

 

Where was I? Oh, I agree with TwoCubDad (as usual) as to the tan shirt being an ingredient in a smoother transition to Boy Scouts. That of course assumes that you have explained it to the boy. I think it is part of the methodology of the Webelos-to-Scout transition plan discussed in the Cub Scout Leader Book though at this point it is an optional part. A rather minor part, but still a part. When the new Webelos hat was coming out (Jan. '02 I think, though my son wanted to keep his blue-on-blue hat and saved me $11, for once), a Scout Shop guy explained to me that it also was part of a symbolic effort to transition boys into Boy Scouts. That is why the "body" of the hat was changed from the dark blue of Cub Scout hats to the olive green of the Boy Scout hat.

 

As for old uniforms, I have read that old uniforms are ok as long as it is a uniform, in other words, no mixing and matching. If you wear a 70's-era shirt you need the matching pants, not the current pants. I don't know how far people would take that, though. Does it also mean that if you have the old "green" uniform you cannot wear the current-day position patch, but instead you need the old one with the bright green background? I don't know the answer to that. I do know that some boys (and adults) in my troop wear the current uniform but with position patches that go back to the 70's (bright green background.) One ASM wears a position patch that goes back to the 60's, a very different design. I once asked one of the ASM's whether those boys were wearing their father's position patches, which I thought was pretty cool. He said no, they found them on e-bay. I found that pretty disappointing.

[JimmyD]

I wish i could remember where my AOL (yes i also thought uit was ment by the online thing) but on my BSa uniforum since 96 it ahs always been right under the left pocket. Thats where we were told but i don't remeber for my cub scouts uniform.

 

I do like the idea for the Webelos for wearing the tan uniform. But i thought the patch and hat were ugly. My opinion is that they shoulkd've left it the way it was and still let them wear their tan uniforms if they wanted too. As a Den Chief i always told the parents to buy them big. Heck i'm still on my 2nd Tan uniform shirt. (although i do have a small gut now lol)

 

Also if they do go and switch Tiger program around so that its more like Wolf and Bear programs i would be in favor of the BLue uniforms for them with the diamond patch but until that happens i don't think Tigers should've been added to the diamond because its a unique program then the others.

[Fat Old Guy]

"The clause I quoted from the current insignia guide states that once a uniform piece is approved by the executive board and published it is an official uniform. It may not be current but it is still official."

 

Ah, I've figured out your real name Bob White. It is Humpty Dumpty. In one breath you tell us not to read between the lines and in another you tell us that we should.

 

You see, that's your interpretation of that statement and you expend many bits and bytes telling us that we don't need to interpret anything published by BSA because it all states exactly what it means.

 

BTW, can you give me a link to this posting by Mr. Walton? I've searched groups.google and I can't find it.

 

[Bob White]

I will try to find the link again it took a while to hunt down the first time. But I will be happy to dig again for you. By the way I wrote Mike and asked him to provide his source material for his comment. I will let you know his response.

 

I have no idea where you feel I read between the lines. What do you think the clause is saying, amd what part of it do you think makes the historic uniform no longer official?

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

It says what it says. "The Handbook" is the current handbook for the program, this is your mantra. The uniform is part of the program (one of the eight methods). Since the uniform is part of the program and only the program in the current handbook is valid then only the uniform shown in the current handbook is valid.

 

I'm wondering how we are supposed to know what Mr. Walton actually says in his response.(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

[Bob White]

Wearing the uniform is one of the eight methods of scouting, what that uniform consists of has changed over the years, but all uniforms that have been approved by the Executive Board and have appeared in the handbooks are official BSA uniforms.

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

Funny how the uniform is one of the eight methods of Scouting but nowhere is having a uniform a requirement to be a member of the BSA! Funny!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fat Old Guy]

Tell me something, when the current eight methods of Scouting were adopted was there an official revocation of the old methods? Was it in the Scoutmaster's handbook, "Do no use last year's methods!" I checked my current handbook and it doesn't say anything about not using the old methods. Does that mean that they are still valid?

 

You really are amusing, according to you old books are evil and dangerous except when you say that they aren't. Makes me wonder if you spend your time chasing a guy named Montag.

[NJCubScouter]

Well, I looked at my old uniform, and of course the arrow of light is on the pocket immediately below my Life badge (oval patch.) When it moved, I don't know.

 

And by the way, on my old uniform the strip above the right pocket (that would now say "Boy Scouts of America" has a red fleur-de-lis and the words "Scout B.S.A." It is a green collarless shirt probably purchased around 1973-74.