Calling All Uniform Police - Pant Question

[Fat Old Guy]

"True enough. But since only about one in a thousand bother to put a crease in their pants, it does not affect too many scouters."

 

Do you think that the number is that high?

 

 

[LauraT7]

FatOldGuy -

 

i agree - with both of your comments - I don't think even that many iron their uniform pants - EVER - nor should they have to - the newer pants are a perma-press fabric - for at least a season or so, depending on how ofen you use them - they should show some kind of crease line for awhile. Permapress will not give you a SHARP crease - - but hey, if you really want a sharp crease, why not stitch it down?

 

In the older pants, which were styled more like men's dress slacks - a crease made more sense. but I doubt even then they were ironed much.

 

As a well-padded person myself, i also don't like hems and zippers encircling & digging into my thigh - which is why the Zippers i choose are softer, more flexible zippers. Still, it's more than NOT having them there. The other thing that helps is to have them low - mine are barely above my knee - where I don't have pressure from 'sitting' on them and where they have a little more 'ease' room.

 

Depending on the zipper chosen - there is alot of variety available - if you look. My son has a pair of zip offs - NOT for scouts - just a pair of sweatpant material pants with zip off legs - but the zippers are so stiff they look like hula hoops around his skinny legs! But he likes them, and the kids wear them at school - so hey, as long as he's clean and neat - i choose my battles - i'm not going to nitpick because I think they are goofy-looking!

 

[Fat Old Guy]

"Permapress will not give you a SHARP crease"

 

It will if you set the iron on Max. :-)

 

"but hey, if you really want a sharp crease, why not stitch it down?"

 

That's for bus drivers and mall security guards.

[dsteele]

Ironing tip I learned from a United States Marine: if you want a sharp crease in a pair of pants, turn them inside out and run a cake of Ivory soap down where you want the crease. It's unscented and the wax from the soap will melt into the fabric and hold the crease very well.

 

I don't think you want to do that with the zippered leg pants you've created.

 

If a more men's dress pant cut is desired, order the 100% cotton pant or the 65% poly/35% wool pant. Both have their ups and downs, but both are cut like dress pants with double-welt pockets in the back and they aren't poly/cotton. The 100% cotton pants fade and wrinkle easily, but wear well when properly cared for. The poly-wool pants are dry clean only -- although I toss mine in the wathing machine and buy a new pair every other year.

 

DS

[Fat Old Guy]

" if you want a sharp crease in a pair of pants, turn them inside out and run a cake of Ivory soap down where you want the crease."

 

I had forgotten that trick. The Last time that I used it was shortly after Orville Wright took to the air.

 

 

[dsteele]

Fat Old Guy:

 

As you have pointed out in several posts, old is not necessarily bad.

 

The Ivory soap crease still works, and, so does the chicken in a backpack (from an old Fieldbook, although it doesn't work well with a nylon backpack it works well with a canvas one and some leaves.)

 

DS

[LauraT7]

Chicken in a backpack?

 

this is one I haven't heard..... how?

[dsteele]

Laurat47:

 

I was wondering if anyone was going to ask. My patrol only did this once when I was a Scout because our Moms freaked out when they heard about it.

 

From the Boy Scout Fieldbook, 1967 edition, page 168:

 

(by way of definition, before you read the quote and imu (ee-moo) is a polynesian way of cooking with hot rocks)

 

"Now here's an inside-out imu that will work while you're travelling -- and be there when you get there! Prepare the fowl as usual (they mean clean it) except for trussing. Meanwhile, be heating up a batch of stones that will go into -- and fill -- the cavity of the bird. When they're red hot, fill the bird and quickly truss the legs and wings securely. Wrap the bird in foil, sealing it and then be prudent and put it in a plastic bag to catch stray juices. Put the package in the center of a packsack loaded with dry leaves for insulation; fill with more leaves Stash the pack in your canoe or even carry it. In 3 or 4 hours the bird should be ready -- and so should you."

 

Make sure you use a canvas pack. Otherwise it may melt. We had to take short turns carrying our chicken because the leaves don't insulate all that well and the heat from the rocks inside the chicken became uncomfortable.

 

But we had a chicken at the middle of the day that was juicy and clevely cooked -- basted in its own juices -- just for walking around.

 

Someday I'll tell you about bean-hole beans. I didn't care for the dish, but it was nice having another hot meal ready to eat when we got back to camp in the evening.

 

DS

[dsteele]

I forgot to mention why the BSA moved away from the cooking with rocks -- used in bean-hole cooking and the chicken in a backpack.

 

Some rocks, particularly sedimentary rocks will explode when heated. This is beause of pockets inside the rock that may still contain moist air which turns to steam and energy when the rock is heated.

 

Use only hard rocks for heating -- mostly rocks not found near bodies of water such as large and small lakes, coastlines, etc. I emphasize NOT found near water.

 

It's not against the Guide to Safe Scouting, it just isn't talked about much anymore.

 

DS

[dsteele]

Lava Rocks! The kind you put in the grill. Those won't blow up in your face.

 

Anyway -- the bean hole brings back a lot of fond Scouting memories for me.

 

It isn't the most enviornmentally friendly because it involves digging a hole, so check with the camp ground for permission before you do it.

 

Here's the quote, again from the 1967 Fieldbook (which I promised I would mail to someone, but lost his address and name. If you're him, please let me know and I'll send you a copy.)

 

"Bean holes aren't just for beans. you can cook lots of one-pot meals while you're off having a good time. Heated stones do the job. Dig a hole 1 1/2 feet wider and a foot deper than your pot after is is lined with dry, flat, nonexplosive stones. Bridge it with some sticks and lay a big criss-cross to get a good fire going. Keep feeding it until you have a hole full of embers so the stones are white hot. Your pot should be ready now. Shovel the coals out and set the pot in on the stones. Replace the embers around the pot and over it, then mound it over with the excavated dirt. Mark the spot well!"

 

Hint: If you don't mark the spot, you risk losing dinner! The mound of dirt may be a dead give-away when you leave, but if it rains while you're gone, the mound may disappear.

 

 

DS

[KoreaScouter]

Any military concerns with zip-off pant legs have more to do with safety in a field or industrial environment, and compatibility with other gear we carry when wearing them, than with day to day wear or fabric durability (BDUs have been notorious for premature wear/fading for years -- most troops' main complaint concerning them).

 

When working around explosives, fuels, engines, or in a potential mine or sensor environment, metal zippers are not a good thing -- that's why BDUs have buttons.

 

Zip off legs on our BDUs would have required one of two things from a practical standpoint. First, raising the height of the cargo pockets to the point where they would have been placed above the bottom of the shirts, and would interfere with equipment mounted on web belts, such as pistol holsters, gas masks, and other regalia. Second, lowering the placement of the zippers to clear the cargo pockets, but now placing them over the knee reinforcements and ensuring that every time a troop "took a knee" (very often), they were grinding the zipper area into the dirt.

 

Either way, not good. But also, should also be irrelevant as far as BSA is concerned. To determine suitability of outerwear, we should probably be using REI, Columbia, and North Face as models, rather than DoD. Our requirements for clothing performance probably match the former more closely than the latter.

 

The argument about the pants and legs fading at different rates, as an argument not to have them from an appearance standpoint, is not an issue in my opinion. First, BDU pants and shirts can be mixed and matched, as long as you don't mix the temperate and hot-weather fabrics. So, it's not uncommon to have a shirt a little more faded than the pants, or vice-versa. Also, let's put this in perspective. BSA doesn't even require a member to have a uniform at all. That said, if a Scout has the full uniform (assuming zip-off pants were official), and the pants had been washed a few more times than the legs, I think my time is better spent encouraging full uniforming for the entire troop, than hammering the full-uniformed Scout because he didn't wash his pants and legs together. Moreover, this wouldn't be an issue if the pants were made of a wicking, durable, quick-drying synthetic like my commercial zip-offs are.

 

Ultimately, why not have the option from a "freedom of choice" standpoint? If you don't like zip-offs, or they chafe your legs, or you think they look bad, don't buy or wear them. To me, it's the same thing as the long sleeve/short sleeve shirts. Both are official, both offered for sale, you wear the one you like.

 

KS

 

 

[KA6BSA]

I agree that the REI zip-offs are more in line with the use Scouts will have camping and hiking. Anyone who has used fast-drying zip-offs with practical cargo pockets for Scouting is going to have a hard time accepting the Oscar de la Renta 1970-styled BSA pants. To be really useful of course you need the other lengthwise zipper that allows taking off the lower pantleg over a pair of hiking boots. I still wear the official BSA pants for "dress" uniform situations and ceremonies but I really hate the small "merit badge card" size pockets (is that what they were designed for? must be because they just fit!) They are so tight that my car key electronic doorlock opener buttons get pressed when I sit down. Just dumb and impractical even just for around-town wear. No place to put a flashlight for late troop meetings, no place to put a cell phone, no place to put reading glasses, and even my wallet is not comfortable anywhere in them. Where are we supposed to carry this normal everyday stuff? I thought the answer was in a pants pocket but that seems too obvious. Yes you can argue about what is official and all, but the REI zip-offs come in a color called Surplus very close to the BSA olive, on sale they cost less than the BSA pants, and they make life so much easier. And REI gladly replaces them if the zippers break, the fabric frays or the color ever looks wrong. Get that kind of service from a Scout Shop!

[Gardyloo]

Hear, Hear on the REI Gear!

 

The counselors and staff at the BSA summer camp where my kids go/ work all wear REI zip-off pants, even with their class A's. For the Venture scouts, REI has a charcoal color that's a perfect match. They hold up wonderfully - eight weeks of daily wear working camp and they still wash up like new. My daughter is planning to use hers for a third year next summer.

 

REI sells a pant line which looks like cotton, it'd be nice if BSA contacted them to design a working uniform. Both my kids really dislike the official uniform pants and shorts. They do wear well, but fit poorly and are unattractive. There are so many outstanding modern fabcrics these days for outdoor wear, I wish BSA would take notice.

[KA6BSA]

Yes, I have a pair of those great zip-offs for Venturing too! The REI color for Venturing pants (Sahara Convertables) is called Carbon. That sounds like black but it is the exact same grey as the ones you would spend more money special-ordering at Scout Shop, and then have to hem the legs too. Actually the BSA Venturing pants have bigger pockets, but not the necessary Velcro, and anyway our San Diego Scout Shop says they hardly ever sell them so the special order status. Yes, the cotton cloth might look good at a Court of Honor, but it is completely against the technical advice of the BSA High Adventure Team here teaching all our Trek Leaders. In fact they have a chant they have drummed into us for hiking in the local mountains and deserts: "Cotton KILLS!" No kidding, including blue jeans too, they are serious.

[dedmon1]

According to the Insigna Guide 2002-2004 Clause 4. Prohibition of Alteration or Imitation.

(a)"No alteration of, or additions to the official uniforms, as described in the official publications, or the rules and regulations covering the wearing of the uniform and the proper combinations thereof on official occasions, may be authorized by any Scouting official or local council or any local executive board or committee, except the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America after consideration by the Program Group Committee"

 

So to answer your question. No they would not be considered a part of the "official" uniform. However I, personally, like the idea of the zip off pants. Maybe someone should submit the idea to the BSA Program Group Committee.