Den Leader

[Kaufmannroy]

Fellow Scouts and Leaders,

 

Have you noticed the direction/position of the blue field on the American Flag worn by our Servicemen/Women on the sleeves of their uniforms?

The blue field leads!!!!! Whether on the right or left sleeve of the Military Uniform. The blue field leads.

Are we, Scouting in general, missing something?

Have FUN!,

Roy

[Scoutmaster Ron]

Roy,

Welcome to the camfire, you may want to look thru the archives on this ame subject it's been hit on quite a few times with I beleive no real answer .except fo rthat the military leads with the stars and we lead with the stripes the only real difference ..they are military and we are not.

[Fat Old Guy]

Actually, it is the military that is out of step. In the early 90's the Army (not the DoD, just the Army) decided that the blue field should go forward. In previous years, the flag was worn with the blue field to the left, just look at pictures from WW II and Korea.

 

The problem arises from an interpretion of the Flad Code. The Flag Code specifies that when the flag is displayed on a surface, the blue field goes to the viewers left. However, flag patches are not flags so they aren't covered by the code.

 

There is some idea that the blue field should go forward to make it looks as if the flag is charging into battle. It is a silly thought but the military has many silly thoughts, for example everyone in camoflauge. Why does an aircraft mechanic need camoflauge? If he needs to hide, wouldn't he better off blending into the grey airplanes? Next, they'll be making sailors wear camoflauge on ships.

 

The final answer is that since the flag patch is not a flag, each organization is allowed to chose the way it wants to wear it.

(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

[purcelce]

FOG wrote, "The final answer is that since the flag patch is not a flag, each organization is allowed to chose the way it wants to wear it."

 

AMEN

 

 

 

[Kaufmannroy]

To Scout Master Ron, Thanks for the welcome. The fire appears to be well stoked! I would appreciate looking thru the archieves. Are you able to point me in a general direction? Again, thanks.

 

To F.O.Guy, ALL Branches of the Military (DOD) appear to have the field of the Flag leading on Uniforms. The rest of your reply does not address the topic, however; From very personal experience - ALL Branches of the Military have forwrd, deployed, aviation units in the field. Having some capability to camoflage one-self in the field, to blend into or confuse the background, just in case a lone nit-wit with a weapon gets that close, works for me. Universaly, all aviation ground support equipment (from ground power units to ARFF equipment) is repainted to reflect/blend in with the local area of operations. Naval Aircraft generally, on the other hand, deployed from Carriers at sea (and the naval aircraft mechanics) would not normally (excluding the Marine Air Wing who should/do normally wear camos 100% of the time) be expected to operate from any thing other than the Carrier platform they are on or took off from. Hiding or camoflaging individual Sailors or Marines on a 1,000' long, 180' wide, 175' tall and 90,000+/- ton object in clear open waters should seem to be irrelevant. Therefore, the presence of a naval uniform "at sea" (to blend into a gray aircraft?) for camoflage seems moot.

[Fat Old Guy]

> To F.O.Guy, ALL Branches of the Military (DOD) appear to have the

> field of the Flag leading on Uniforms.

 

I offer the following quote from the Army's Institute of Heraldry

 

"This is the Department of Army's policy. Since the US Code does not address wear of the patch specifically, it is a decision that must be left to the discretion of the organization prescribing the wear. Wear of the patch either way is considered proper."

 

What the Army does, the other services often follow. Look at the "US MARINES" tape that are on Marine Corps utilities. The DoD mandated that so they'd match everyone else.

 

 

"Having some capability to camoflage one-self in the field, to blend into or confuse the background"

 

And this explains why computer operators in Dayton, Ohio need camoflauge?

 

"Hiding or camoflaging individual Sailors or Marines on a 1,000' long, 180' wide, 175' tall and 90,000+/- ton object in clear open waters should seem to be irrelevant."

 

Actually, during WW II, the Service Dress Khaki uniform was replaced with a grey version for service in the North Atlantic because khaki would stand out against the grey of the ship.

[hops_scout]

It is "THE UTILITY" uniform..... That means it is worn for more than just one reason....

 

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

Computer operators would be better served with slacks, a lightweight shirt and sneakers not boots and a heavy camoflauge suit.

[hops_scout]

Yes, true, FOG, but that costs the tax payer more money because they still have to be in some kind of uniform therefore the government has to spend money to research it, decide on it, make it, and provide it to them. Besides, you wouldnt want us to wear a different uniform than what your troop wears would you?

[Fat Old Guy]

"Yes, true, FOG, but that costs the tax payer more money because they still have to be in some kind of uniform therefore the government has to spend money to research it, decide on it, make it, and provide it to them."

 

They already have uniforms that are appropriate.

 

"Besides, you wouldnt want us to wear a different uniform than what your troop wears would

 

"Us?" When did you join the Air Force and what does that have to do with my Boy Scouts.

[hops_scout]

WOW... sorry, but if you could please think about this one. The Army all wear the same uniform usually, even if in a computer lab. Boy Scouts should all wear the uniform too.:) Did you get the connection now?? Or do I need to explain it a little bit more??:)

[Fat Old Guy]

"WOW... sorry, but if you could please think about this one."

 

Sorry but the problem is on the sending end. A fundamental premise of communications is that if the receiver doesn't understand, the sender has a problem.

 

Let's look at your sentence, "Besides, you wouldnt want us to wear a different uniform than what your troop wears would you?"

 

We were discussing the Air Force and you use "us", a pronoun without an antecedent, the assumption that follows is that the antecedent is that which was being discussed immediately before.

 

"The Army all wear the same uniform usually, even if in a computer lab"

 

Hmmmmm. . . perhaps you should spend some time in the Army before you speak, the Army has many uniforms and many are wore by different people at the same time.

[hops_scout]

"USUALLY"

 

I didnt say they always wear the same. I said they usually do. You're right, they do have several different uniforms.

 

Let's see

Woodland

3 color Desert

6 color Desert

Urban

 

Along with their Class B and Class A's. And if you would actually read the board outside the box... you might pick up the fact that I'm 14 therefor I wouldnt say "US" and refer to the US Air Force.

[Kaufmannroy]

hops_scout....You, for all of 14, are one very well spoken Scout.

You may want to consider that the Military also has versions of uniforms for operations in the artic, mountain, sand, at night, underwater and (probably) many others.

Nice posts. You'll do very well in the future!

And to Ron, I hope you can help me find those archives.

Roy

[Kaufmannroy]

FO Guy,

You quote from an Institue of Heraldry. The stuff they compile is of a historical nature. It is not intended nor implied to reflect contempory views a couple of hundred years later. Things change. We now, for 200 odd years, have a standard USA Flag! It is also extremely unlikely that the wearing/position/orientation of the Flag on any units uniform would be left to the organizations commander. That could be a Squad Leader. A decision of this nature had to take place on a DOD level.

 

The Marines developed camos. On a side note; The Marines also developed the newer "bit map" camos. The Army likes to put stuff on uniforms. If I recall correctly, the Marines did not want to place any item on the uniform which might degrade the effectiveness of the camo scheme. Remember, this (camos) was new stuff!Hence the introduction of "flat black painted, pin-on" emblems of rank. Cheap emblems which were easily removed should the situation require it. However, the Army prevailed!

 

Why you take comments out of context intrigues me. Your replies give the impression of a educated, and, presumably, thoughtful person.

 

Should a military computer operator, from anywhere, be unfamiliar with the proper look/wearing/donning of a camoflage uniform? Or a gas mask? Or a life-preserver?Should that operator be immediately transferred to a hostile environment, whos gonna have the time to set him/her aside for a few days or weeks to train them? It is, ultimately, much easier, cheaper, SAFER to have "UNIFORMS".

 

Actually, khaki uniforms, during WW II, were a scarse commodity. The Military was given the highest priority for khaki material. The fact that the US Merchant Marine, or any other Maritime Organization, may or may not, have decided upon gray or any other color was more a reflection of the times!

 

Which leads me (Thank You!) to my original question. At this time, is it proper for the BSA to address the direction of the field on a sewn, uniform, Flag emblem?

 

Remember, Have FUN,

Roy