Shoulder loop proposal

[Fat Old Guy]

"1. The Glossary section of the Venturing Leader Guide (look under "uniform"), and a better source"

 

Don't have that.

 

"2. The Venturing section of the Uniform and Insignia Guide. Look for the paragraph on shoulder loops."

 

I have the "Insignia Guide," are you speaking of a different book. "Shoulder loops, green ribbon NO. 00678, Venturer and Venturing adult, on shoulder epaulets."

 

"Shoulder epaultes" a bit redundant, eh? One cannot have epaulets on the legs or buttocks.

 

I didn't see the bit that you mentioned at first. I then realized that I had pulled my '99-'01 copy of the Insignia Guide off the shelf.

 

"BTW, it bans wearing green shoulder loops on the khaki shirt, not the kahki shirt per se. Also, adults can still wear this combo. Call it a shoulder loop loophole. "

 

Last year Mike Walton (Settummanque) mentioned on rec.scouts.usa that adults could no longer wear the khaki shirt in Venturing.

 

Mike has said a bunch about Venturing shirts and loops over the years. As you can see, every year the policies seem to change. If you don't know Mike's writings, he has a very interesting web site and has held just about every position in Scouting and has earned just about every award there is. His knowledge is encyclopedic but he is never pedantic or arrogant.

 

 

8/30/99 The BSA's first advisory on the Venturing program says that the uniform for VENTURERS and their adult leaders IS TO BE the kelly green shirts with green shoulder loops and the "Venturing BSA" strip.

 

I believe that the Venturing Reference Guide also states that same item.

Since then, the BSA's Venturing Division has relaxed the policy on wearing the "khakitan" shirt by ADULT VENTURING leaders, and some Councils are permitting their ADULTS (only) to wear the khakitan shirt with the dark green shoulder loops in the place of or in addition to the kelly green Venturing shirts (which I personally think are cool as get-out, being a former Exploring leader and member!). This is because many Venturing leaders are also Scouters on the District or Council level in addition to their other program duties....

but ALL YOUTH MEMBERS are to wear the kelly green shirts!! This is to resolve confusion between youth members of Boy/Varsity Scouting units which are ALL MALE and Venturing units which are MALES AND FEMALES.

 

(and to sell the official uniform!!)

 

On 6/3/01 Third, NO, they CANNOT wear the khaki-tan shirt with green shoulder loops. The khaki-tan shirt should ONLY be worn by Boy Scouts/Varsity Scouts and by ALL ADULT VOLUNTEERS AND PROFESSIONALS. Why?? For one thing, the various square knot and other insignia (position emblems, interpreter strips, etc.) are ONLY being made with the khaki-tan background and borders, which presents a real clash against the kelly green Venturing shirt. The BSA is NOT considering creating versions with kelly green backgrounds similarily to what they did in the 50s and 60s for the old Exploring shirts.

 

Venturing volunteers will be told that they are to wear ONLY the

khaki-tan shirts and will be discouraged from wearing the kelly green

shirts (as that shirt identifies YOUTH MEMBERS in the same way that

the Cub Scout blue shirt IDs youth members). Venturing adults wear

the kelly green shoulder loops with the khaki-tan shirt.

 

On 5/25/02

>I was at a recent district training event >and many of the staff were wearing very >strange items. There was the one >person wearing a green venturing shirt (as I read the book, Vernturing leaders still

>wear the khaki shirt).

 

Nope. Venturing leaders wear the kelly green Venturing shirt. Venturing leaders can't wear the khaki-tan shirt with green shoulder loops anymore.

 

 

 

[Yak_Herder]

Ah, yes. Mike is a good man. I enjoy his stuff and his manner.

 

Page 29 of the most current Uniform and Insignia guide I have (2002-2004, I understand there is a newer on but our Scout Shop won't sell it until the older stuff is gone. That's a rant for another day.) reads:

 

"Shoulder loops, green ribbon, No. 00678, Venturer and Venturing adult, on shoulder epaulets worn on Venturing spruce green uniform shirt. Not to be worn on Boy Scout khaki uniform."

 

If it is any further help, in the Venturing Leader Manual, under the Venturing Reference Guide, on page 332, it reads:

 

"uniforms and insignia (BSA). The BSA green Venturing shirt is available for wear by Venturers and adult leaders. The green Venturing short-sleeve shirt with green shoulder loops will be worn with charcoal gray shorts or long pants as the recommended feild uniform for Venturers. Male and female Venturers should not wear the Boy Scout tan shirt with green shoulder loops. Existing insignia placement policies related to BSA uniforms shall apply to the green Venturing shirt. Crews choosing to wear a patch related to their specialty may do so on the right shoulder sleeve. District, division, council, and national leaders related to Venturing may wear the green, silver, or gold shoulder loops with the green Venturing shirt. Sea Scouts may choose to wear the naughtical-style uniforms using Sea Scouting insignia available from the BSA Supply Division. For further information on BSA uniforms and insignia, contact your BSA local council or refer to the Venturer Handbook. A uniform, if any, is the choice of the crew."

 

Information on uniforming is found on page 6 of the Venturer Handbook. I won't quote it as it is readily available and adds no information germane to this discussion.

[Fat Old Guy]

I am still wondering if the book that you refer to as the "Uniform and Insignia Guide" is the book that I have titled "Insignia Guide 2002-2004" (#33066C) or if there is a book out there that I don't have.

 

 

[Yak_Herder]

Yes, Foggy. We're talking about the same book. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. I guess I've been referring to it by the wrong title for years now. Thanks for pointing out the correct title for me. I value accuracy!

 

Yakster

[Fat Old Guy]

I could see me now at the Scout Shop asking for a copy of the "Uniform and Insignia Guide."

 

There's no such book. We have the Insignia Guide."

 

"No, a guy on the internet refers to it all the time. Check your publications catalog."

 

An argument ensues and I get thrown out and banned for life.

 

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

The "Insignia Guide 2003-2005" is out, cat no 33066D, but I had to drive 4 hours to get it. Maybe if we all refuse to buy the old stuff, someone will get the message. As I said, I travel a lot and always try to visit the Council Shop in other councils. I spent over $100 at the National Capital Area Council updating my "training library" of new versions that I didn't know were out. For some reason, they had all new up to date stuff. I really would like to support my local council, but I don't appreciate being sold old goods. If I were a Cub leader, I would order all new stuff from National if I had to. Why have kids start the program using obsolete materials?

[Fat Old Guy]

" For some reason, they had all new up to date stuff."

 

NCAC is one of the largest councils with about 80,000 Scouts and 25,000 Scouters. They probably have a very quick turnover of material.

[ExperiencedUniforms]

Hello all:

 

Nice thread. Green on green or tone on tone is what it's called. I think it's KEWL. I also like the running lights on the squids.

 

I don't know about white loops. There's two kinds of dirt in the world; light dirt that gets on dark clothing, and dark dirt that gets on light clothing. White shoulder loops would get dirty quick. I know of some Venturers who resent the buttons on the shoulders of the shirt as they dig into your shoulders while wearing a backpack. But, there are those who say; who would wear a uniform shirt while backpacking? Add a metal pin to the shoulder, and youll quickly discover real pain while wearing a pack or heavy jacket.

 

Easiest solution when wearing the greens is to not wear loops on the (shoulder) epaulets, unless it is silver or gold.

 

Above the left front pocket on the blue uniform, is the words BOY SCOUTS of AMERICA in gold thread. Above the left front pocket on the khaki-tan uniform is BOY Scouts OF AMERCA in read thread. Above the left front pocket on the green uniform is VENTURING, BSA. Heres my query; to what program do the wearers of the blue shirts belong?

 

Keep on Scoutin ora

[Fat Old Guy]

Good question. At one time the Cub Scout shirts said, "Cub Scouts, BSA" but that went away.

[acco40]

"The Aims and Methods of Scouting effect all program areas, including Venturing."

 

DHII,

 

Yes both Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venturing have aims and methods but the methods differ from each other. As I stated, Uniform is a method of Boy Scouts and is NOT a method for Venturing.

 

Boy Scout Methods

Ideals

Patrol Method

Outdoors

Advancement

Adult Association

Personal Growth

Leadership Development

Uniform

 

Venturing Methods

Adult Association

Leadership

Recognition

Ideals

Group Activities

High Adventure

Teaching Others

 

Some are the same (adult association), some are very similar (ideals) buthtey are NOT the same.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[KA6BSA]

My impression of the reason for the big conspicuous white "Venturing BSA" patch on the right sleeve is that since the Venturing program is only a few years old it was judged to need a big advertisement for itself right there on the uniform. So why doesn't BSA Supply Div sew it on in the right place for us already on the shirt when we buy it? Looking at a bunch of Venturers you see that big patch all up and down their sleeves in different places. I think it shows some serious insecurity to need that big patch repeating what is already embroidered above the right pocket just a few inches away. I suppose BSA sells the white patch separately because they can discontinue its use if the program survives a few more years. But meanwhile it seems greatly redundant to me... and it certainly is conspicuous like they wanted it to be since it is too large and mostly-blank white cloth. Seems so contrary to have the shoulder loops be a dark green nobody can even notice... must have been a different committee doing that. To put it in perspective I can't visualize the same kind of patch ever being accepted by Boy Scouts... they would feel silly wearing a 3-inch size patch saying "Boy Scouts" pushing their little patrol animals farther down the sleeve. I don't remember any such silly big patch on my Expolrer shirt sleeve in 1960. But then we knew that was a go program?