kilt

[SueVerner]

Also, a decent McLaren kilt can be bought for around $50 from a website or two that I've found. No, it won't last forever, but it's a good, basic acrylic kilt. A nice nod to McLaren, and extra nice if your boys have Scottish ancestry (our Scoutmaster does, but he's a McDonald - wonder if he could wear their kilt or should wear McLaren if he were inclined to wear one?).

[jhankins]

Stillwater Kilts make a great Thrifty kilt for under $30. It's got no frills or belt loops, but it's great for occasional wear.

 

On WE4-45-2-10's Troop 1 staff, we all wore kilts. Some wore MacLaren, some wore the official Leatherneck USMC tartan, others wore family colors. It was loads of fun! My son and I both wear our MacLaren kilts for special occasions.

 

The Clan MacLaren society has a neat web page dedicated to wearing scottish attire with the MacLaren tartan.

[Stosh]

One thing about the non-class structured Colonial Yankees have forgotten over the years is that the Old World still operates on a different set of long honored traditions than they do.

 

Family and/or Clan designations are for those who are of the family or clan. Although I am 100% American I did take the time to properly, genealogically prove my family line and am thus certified to wear the Melville tartan. Would I wear another family's tartan? Not without insulting them. I take it very seriously that a small piece of the McLaren tartan is on my WB scarf to show an honorable brotherhood to the family. However, to think it proper to usurp the family tartan just because you can, doesn't show much scouting honor in the process.

 

I wouldn't want my daughters to sign up for Daughters of the American Revolution unless it could be proven, which has been done and they could join. I wouldn't presume it was appropriate to portray myself as a Son of a Union Veteran unless I had proof of that lineage, which I do. I would not for one second presume to wear a Congressional Medal of Honor if it hadn't been awarded to me.

 

If there is nothing honorable in the process, then I don't suppose it's any big deal for a foreigner to make a dress out of a US flag, because to them it may be nothing more than a pretty piece of decorative cloth.

 

On my honor.... Ever wonder why the whole WB scarf isn't the McLaren tartan? Why just a small piece?

 

For those who may wish the information: The kilt worn as part of a military uniform was not for show or to impress those around, but so that when that soldier was killed, those cleaning up the battlefields afterward would be able to get the right bodies back to the right family. Irish fisherman's knit sweaters were so that when a body washed up on the shores somewhere, one could tell by the pattern which family to notify and come get the body.

 

Long and honorable traditions mean something to some people, and for others, it's getting someone else's kilt so they can show off what they think is a cool uniform. Well, it just doesn't set well with me. I'm happy with the honor given to me by the McLaren family to wear a small bit of their tartan. I wouldn't assume or presume any more than what is offered.

 

Maybe it's a bit like Halloween. Being offered a piece of candy isn't the same as taking the whole bowl.

 

One has to give respect in order to expect any back.

 

By the way the Melville tartan isn't very pretty, wide blue and green with thin black and white. One doesn't get to pick family.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Eagle92]

Actually if memory serves, the original WB neckers were 100% Maclaren tarten, but they got too expensive, and hot as well, so Gilwell switched to a swatch of the tarten.

[nugent725]

I have to admit, I thought that this was an excellent idea, until I read jblake47's post. It did make me stop and think, and realize that we should respect the traditions of the old world. Yet, I love celebrating my Irish heritage (Yes, the Celts wore kilts too...not just the Scots), with kilts and old world traditions. So what to do? Well, this may be a bit of a middle ground. How about a new (and registered/recognized) BSA tartan, with a small swatch of the MacLaren Tartan, possibly with a set of beads embroidered over top? This way, we are wearing our own tartan, and respectfully paying tribute to the MacLaren clan. If the BSA were to really go for this (which realistically, I doubt they would) then you would have two kilts...one with the MacLaren swatch (for WoodBadgers), and one without for those that aren't. Just a thought.

 

YIS,

 

Ryan

[rmeints]

Stosh (jblake47) raises some interesting points. I am not trying to start an argument by pointing out there are two (or more) sides to this.

 

Yes, the Old World does operate on different standards for some things, including doing exactly what Stosh says the Colonials do: The Europeans went around the world bringing all manner of other country's traditions and dress back home. The English in particular did this with gusto, with many things from Egypt, India, and South Africa to name a few. This even applies to woodbadge itself. The original woodbadge beads were from a Zulu leader's necklace. Basically they are something that only a Zulu (or at least African) chief would wear. I am pretty sure the chief would have not allowed any of his "common villagers" to wear them. Yes, woodbadgers have earned them, but not by any Zulu's standards. Regardless, I am comfortable wearing them now that I have completed woodbadge, and I am sure many Zulus have no problem with how the beads are used in Scouting either.

 

Scouting teaches us to embrace the diversity of all manner of cultures, etc. as part of the spirit of world scouting. I believe that works both ways to a certain degree. We respect them, and they respect us, hopefully as we head towards no longer needing to look at things from a "them" and "us" perspective. Claiming a cultural monopoly on item X, Y, or Z, based on ethnic/cultural origin does not build bridges. Bringing honor into question over it will probably only turn up the heat on the issue.

 

I don't mind if someone (including a foreigner) makes a dress that uses the pattern of an American flag. People in the US do that with all manner of items for use around the 4th of July. Making one specifically out of an actual flag seems a bit of a waste to me since the cloth is readily available, but I've seen it done for clothing worn by all manner of supporters of various world cup (soccer) teams. You see that at the Olympics too. I see loads of college football fans wear a school's colors, and I don't feel they lack honor for wearing them if they didn't specifically attend that school.

 

As for Sons of the Union, I was happy to see that they allow "associate" members, i.e. you can be a member as long as you abide by their other rules of membership, regardless of being able to prove you are descended from a Union Soldier.

[VigilEagle04]

"I have to admit, I thought that this was an excellent idea, until I read jblake47's post. It did make me stop and think, and realize that we should respect the traditions of the old world. Yet, I love celebrating my Irish heritage (Yes, the Celts wore kilts too...not just the Scots), with kilts and old world traditions. So what to do?"

 

Here's how I view it. First and foremost, let me point out that as men of Irish heritage, there are 3 tartans in the Scottish registry for us. As Irish Americans, there is a 4th. http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/results.aspx?name=irish&cat=&ref=&des=&sta=&stwr=&apn=&res=

 

There are also tartans for several prominent Irish families, but mainly there are regional tartans. Now, knowing that some of my roots (the traceable Irish ones anyway) go to County Meath in Leinster, I could wear that regional tartan. I may also point out that the traditional Irish kilt is a solid color, though to be fair, the Irish didn't really adopt the kilt until the early 20th century. There is nothing truly "traditional" about an Irish kilt. It was adopted by some as a symbol of Celtic heritage more than anything.

 

So, if your Celtic roots lie in the Emerald Isle, you have plenty of options.(This message has been edited by VigilEagle04)

[nugent725]

Vigil,

 

I understand that Irish tartans are not set by Clan, but by County. For example, I would wear County Westmeath...because that's where the Nugents were most prominent. Nevertheless, I don't want to get sidetracked into the whole Celt/Scot tradition history.

 

What I was essentially hitting at is a BSA tartan. Now that I've had a few minutes to think on it, the Webelos necker pattern would be perfect. It has the green and red for the Boy Scout program, Blue and Gold for the Cubs...and the two are enmeshed together, signifying the union between the two. I don't know if the BSA designed this necker that way, but it makes sense to me. Anyway...take that "tartan", and place a small patch of MacLaren, with the log or beads.

[VigilEagle04]

I definitely think the BSA making their own tartan would be an excellent idea. I've actually thought of a couple other ideas to send on to supply, maybe you should suggest that one, lol.

[Eagle92]

Again if memory serves, the head of the Maclaren Clan in the 1920s( would he be called the "laird?") actually authorized all scouts irregardless of whether they were Scottish or not to wear the Maclaren tarten. And that authorization has not been rescinded to my knowledge.

 

Sorry I cannot remember where I picked this bit of trivia from, but it is out there.

[SueVerner]

My thought was that if the story about Laird McLaren from the really old days is true, then all Scouts, not just Scottish Scouts, could wear McLaren. (I've never heard or read that he specified only Scottish boys, although the intent may have been there.) Somewhere in some research, I read that there is a Boy Scout tartan registered in Scotland, but that seems rather superfluosly repetitively redundant if Scouts have, in fact, been granted permission to wear McLaren. I think Scouts could therefore just wear the McLaren tartan, assuming that permission HAS been granted -I see no need to create a whole new one.

[jhankins]

I remember hearing that, too, Eagle92. It couldn't hurt to email the Laird and even ask, now.

 

When I went to a Highland Games here in CA with my son wearing our MacLaren, the gentle people at the family booth even shook our hands with the left.

 

I take pride in my honorary membership into the clan, and in honoring the traditions we're invited to participate in.

[Twocubdad]

Stosh, I think you over state the case a bit. I wouldn't put wearing a McLauren tartan in the same category as the Medal of Honor. I think you're maybe trying to apply the standards of historical reinacting (to which I'll defer to your expertise), but I don't think that applies here.

 

Most clan associations are pretty open about both membership and the use of both tartans and clan crests. Clan members are those who share the surname of the clan, a sept (related family), or anyone who pledge allegiance to the clan. Now days, of the clan bylaws or membership applications I've read include language like "and all others who share the goals and objectives of the clan."

 

And that's for official membership. If you want to consider yourself a McLauren because you're a Wood Badger, or a McDonald because you like the hamburgers, no one is going to care (although technically, you can only be a member of one clan). And if you want to pony up 30 bucks for a membership, they're more than glad to have you, cousin! If you want to wear a McLauren kilt and be 100% accurate about it, join the clan. As has been noted elsewhere in this thread (sometime in the past decade), Clan McLauren has a special class of membership for Wood Badgers.

 

The use of tartans and clan badges is authorized for any clan member. Clan badges usually include the clan crest (not the Coat of Arms) and the clan motto, surrounded by a belt and buckle. The belt and buckle denotes your allegiance to the clan chief.

 

Coats of Arms, however, are a different matter. They are the property of the person to whom they are granted. In fact the Court of Lyon is very serious about enforcing it's grants. Unauthorized use of Coats of Arms may be prosecuted by the Court at the expense of the Crown.

[VigilEagle04]

"Coats of Arms, however, are a different matter. They are the property of the person to whom they are granted. In fact the Court of Lyon is very serious about enforcing it's grants. Unauthorized use of Coats of Arms may be prosecuted by the Court at the expense of the Crown."

 

Well, the common misconception is that a coat of arms is for the family, but it is only to one person, at least in the British Isles. They can be handed down to children, but there are certain heraldic symbols that get put in there in that case.

 

As for the rest of your post, I agree completely. In a sense, Scouts wearing the MacLaren tartan is like showing respect and allegiance to that clan, which makes good sense considering the gift of Gilwell. Nothing disrespectful about it, IMO.

 

Though I have put some thought into having a walking kilt made out of a fabric the color of the BSA pants. It won't be as good looking as the tartan, but I'm interested in how it will look. If I can get the material in the Webelos plaid, I may try that out as well. If only the weaver I once knew was still alive.

[DancesWithSpreadsheets]

I'm with Twocubdad on this. Especially since there is virtually no evidence that specific clan tartans existed before the mid 19th century and the scam perpetrated by the "Sobieski-Stuart" brothers. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestiarium_Scoticum)

 

BSA could quite easily register its own tartan, many states have a registered tartan, ditto universities and businesses. I did a search and was suprised to find that BSA apparently does not have one.

 

Regards,

DWS

Edited to correct time frame, it was later than I thought.

(This message has been edited by DancesWithSpreadsheets)