Appropriate Headgear for a Cubmaster?

[Eamonn]

Hey Marty (If I can be so bold)

I think that you will find that most of those that Staff a Wood Badge Course, are really glad that you are there.

Without you there would be no course.

They are there to serve you.

Yes it is great when everyone is there in their "Sunday Best Uniform."

However I served on a course last year and we had one Lady, from my Council who didn't have the uniform pants.

The Course was not being presented in our home council. However over the years I have "Bumped" into this Lady.

The Lady is African American,and comes from one of the poorer areas in our council. She runs a pack where all the boys are also African American and does a super job.

When I saw her name on the list of who was attending, I had no idea who she was. It was just a name. But when I seen it was her, I was so happy that I could have kissed her. Pants or no Pants (So to speak)

As far as this hat thing goes. It does state that hats for female leaders are an option.

If we want to follow the letter of the law:

No Cub Scout Leaders can not wear the campaign hat.

I have no idea why they can't, but it is very clear that they can't.

Still thinking back to when I did the old Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge all the staff wore them. We participants wore the Blue and gold cap.

I'm hoping that everyone who shows up for NE-IV-153, will be happy to wear our course cap. However if one of the female participants is unhappy about wearing a hat, that will be fine.

If after the course you want to wear a campaign hat - I promise not to tell anyone.

I will be taking a campaign hat to the course to wear for a few minutes at a campfire.

My Wife tells me it was my knees that she noticed first when we met at Camp Conestoga 26 years ago this month. So maybe with the hat and my good looking knees, I will be very dashing, and yes I have the accent to round it all off.

[Marty_Doyle]

Of course, if it a West Cork or Belfast accent, no one on this side of the pond will really understand anything yopu say. But it will sound brillant.

[Twocubdad]

"Yes, if we both show up in our respective uniforms we are both properly uniformed, but that does not make our uniforms the same."

 

Huh?!?! I didn't say respective uniforms, I said identical uniforms. Let me draw a picture:

 

Bob White and Twocubdad are standing side-by-side, debating some arcane point of BSA policy. Both are wearing basic field uniforms -- identical official socks, pants, belts and shirts. The only difference between the two uniforms are the shoulder tabs, position patches, council strips, unit numerals and whatever personal insignia (i.e., square knots, activity patches, etc.) we choose to wear. So which one of us is not properly uniformed for our position? How can you say these two leaders don't "look anything alike"?

 

All the other things you mention are accessories -- nonessential, supplementary or optional items that are still desirable and which contribute to an effect.

 

Even the yellow and blue ladies uniform is an option. A female Cub Scouter could (and most do) properly wear the field uniform. (Off point, but I don't see how much longer national can keep supplying the yellow uniforms due to lack of volume. I only know of three ladies in our entire Council who still wear them, and they are older ladies who have worn them since they were the only option for women.)

 

"Yes, in Cub Scouts you have the option as to whether or not you wear a neckerchief, bolo or no neckwear, but you do not have the open option of which neckerchief you can wear like you do in Boy Scouts."

 

So according to your interpretation of the Insignia Guide, it is impermissible for me to wear the National Camp School neckerchief I got at CUB SCOUT day camp school? Why did the guys from regional even offer those neckerchief to a group comprised entirely of Cub Scouters? What about to an OA event? If a Cub Scouter/OA member goes to a conclave do the rules forbid him from wearing the conclave neckerchief he is given? How about a NESA neckerchief at an Eagle COH?

 

[Bob White]

One of the things causing miscommunication twocubdad is you keep changing the question. lets look at the original question you asked.

"is it not a basic principle that all adult leader uniforms are essentially the same?"

 

That changed to "If you and I show up in identical uniforms -- except for your red shoulder tabs Scoutmaster position patch and my blue tabs and Cub Committee Chairman patch, no hats, no neckerchiefs -- are we not both properly uniformed?"

 

Then you responded to my answer by saying "How can you say these two leaders don't "look anything alike"?

 

You didn't ask if they looked alike. You asked are we not both uniformed correctly. We do not need to look alike to both be uniformed correctly.

 

 

The answer to your first question is no. All leader uniforms are not the same.As I pointed out there is more than one uniform for leaders. Are all field uniforms the same? No, Only the tan boy Scout field uniform and the tan Cub Scout uniform are similar.

 

As far as the second question, I should have answered yes. Yes, if I am in a correct Boy Scout field uniform and you are in a correct Cub Scout field uniform then we would both be correctly uniformed. (We would also look similar but that is not the question you asked.)

 

 

Finally, "So according to your interpretation of the Insignia Guide, it is impermissible for me to wear the National Camp School neckerchief I got at CUB SCOUT day camp school? Why did the guys from regional even offer those neckerchief to a group comprised entirely of Cub Scouters?

[Marty_Doyle]

I would think it was great if you wore any of those neckerchiefs.I also think the campaign hat is really cool from a nine year old's perspective.

For our last Pinewood Derby, we had the boys make slides out of PVC pipe and Matchbox cars. And we gave all of the boys in our den black and white checked bandans to wear for that one night ($1.99 each). Every one there noticed.

 

Is all of this 100% correct uniforming? No.

 

At the Cub Scout level, is wearing 10 out of 11 pieces of the uniform correctly and getting the boys to talk about the one "different" piece a bad thing? NO. A teachable moment that can increase interest in the whole Scouting continuum.

 

What I've gotten out of this thread is that, as I thought, there is no "official" Cubmaster hat. And the Wood Badge instructor agrees, so isn't going to call me on it at the class.

Thanks for all of your input.

I think I'm going with the blue and gold beanie, if I can't get a Green Bar Bill Smokey the Bear hat.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

I find it interesting that the Male Leader inspection form makes no mention of the Campaign Hat or the Expedition Hat and the Female Leader inspection form mentions the campaign hat.

 

We also find no restrictions of headgear in the Insignia guide, however, we do know that any previous BSA uniform hat is still allowed to be worn with any uniform.

 

Knowing that the campaign hat and expedition hat are legal options for the Male Boy Scout Leader but are not mentioned on the inspection form we can conclude that they are also legal options for Male Cub Scout leaders since there seems to be no evidence to the contrary.

 

 

[Eamonn]

Hey FOG

You might want to take another look.

[Fat Old Guy]

Oops, missed that campaign hat reference. However, my arguments still stand. No mention is made of other hats that are permitted hence a Cub Scout leader may wear the expedition hat or the campaign hat.

 

If you follow the assumption that only Boy Scout leaders may wear the campaign hat, what of District or Council committee members? When I'm wearing my grey loops, I am not a Boy Scout Leader per se but I am a Scouter. No headgear is specified for District or Council level volunteers so does that mean we must go bareheaded?

 

 

[Eamonn]

If we go by the book:

Female Leaders: Headgear is an option.

Leaders wear the same visored cap as the youth they serve.

The campaign hat may be worn at troop option by Boy Scout leaders.

Male Leaders: Boy Scout leaders wear the olive and red visor cap, or the campaign hat....

 

Just as the blue Webelos cap, is not uniform for a Boy Scout Leader.

The campaign hat is not uniform for a Cub Scouter.

When you wear your gray? (Silver) Loops.

I would think that you might wear the cap that fits, the program area that you serve.

If you are a unit commissioner for a pack, wear a Cub Scout cap. Boy Scout cap or the campaign hat if you are working with Boy Scouts.

If you are not doing anything with just one program area (Member of the key 3, or in a Council position, that is not area specific) wear the headgear that you think best suits the job that you are doing at the time.

What the heck, most of us are wearing too many hats anyway.

I try not to wear any,- I dislike hats, caps and hoods. Could have something to do with my silver (gray?)locks.

[Fat Old Guy]

What book? The insignia guide says nothing about what hats may be worn and the inspection sheet says nothing about the expedition hat, the boonie hat, or the garrison cap.

 

As a district committee member, I serve no particular program so where does that leave me.

 

Since nothing expressly forbids the campaign hat for Cub Scouters, it is is by inference permitted.

[acco40]

Rules, rules, rules. Let's try to use a little basic etiquette. For Woodbadge training, the trainers often wear campaign (Smokey the Bear) hats. I would highly advise the students not to wear their campaign hats to Woodbadge.

 

What is now the "Wolf" uniform, more closely resembles what was long ago the Cub Scout uniform. I wish I still had my blue and gold hat with the gold piping/stripes! That was a classic. I believe some merchandiser came up with the brilliant idea to have separate uniforms for Tiger, Wolf, Bear and Webelos. As such, if a Cubmaster wanted to wear a specific hat (Tiger, Wolf, Bear or Webelos) I'd go with the Wolf.

 

BW, in one of your posts you mentioned that female Cub Scouter could wear the yellow shirt (blouse). That is correct but I hope you are not inferring that female Boy Scouters could not. I know that female committee members, district volunteers, etc. can all wear the yellow (with the Oscar de la Renta scarf!). I think that a female SM or ASM can too but most wish not to.(This message has been edited by acco40)(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Bob White]

Although I do not have my uniform resources with me at the moment I am pretty confident that the yellow uniform blouse is a female Cub Leader uniform piece only.

 

BW

[Fat Old Guy]

Bob is right, the yellow blouse is for Cub Scout leaders or District, Council or National staff who are working with Cub Scout programs. It would be proper for a Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner to wear a yellow blouse when she was doing Roundtable but not when she is functioning as an ASM.

 

Some claim that the boys want the different caps so people won't mistake them for the wrong rank. I don't know about that. I informally polled the boys in my pack and all but one (46 out of 47) said, "I don't care." All of the Webelos did not like the new cap.

 

It is a marketing ploy. If only half the Cub Scouts buy new caps every year, that's about $5 million in revenue. Since the caps only cost about $2 to produce, that's quite a bit of profit.

[Bob White]

Thanks for clarifying the "marketing ploy". Man those folks at National are clever, creating an optional uniform piece that nobody likes, and then over-pricing it so that it will stay on the warehouse shelves. It's brilliant!

 

By the way being in a business that does a lot of work in customized apparel, I can tell you those are more than $2 hats, around $6 wholesale. Add to that the retail mark the council pays, then the distributors percentage that the scout shop actually keeps as profit. The uniform has a very modest mark-up by retail standards.

 

But, I know the truth isn't as fun to gripe about as things that some people make up.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

Come on Bob, stay with the program. I didn't say anything about wholesale, did I? As for $6 wholesale, that's a bit high. I can get a good quality fitted cap with embroidery in quantities as small as 12 for about $12 each. If you're paying $6 for crappy caps in massive quantities, you're being ripped off.

 

As for optional uniform items, the entire uniform is optional, crappy quality and it is all over priced.