Red Wool Jacket

[FScouter]

The commissioner barged into a Court of Honor, took over, lined up the boys, and conducted an inspection?

or

The Scoutmaster invited him to come and take part in program, which included a uniform inspection?

[evmori]

The commissioner barged into a Court of Honor, took over, lined up the boys, and conducted an inspection?

or

The Scoutmaster invited him to come and take part in program, which included a uniform inspection?

 

Makes no difference.

 

A Court of Honor is not the place to hold a uniform inspection. A Troop meeting, campout, Patrol meeting are more appropriate places for uniform inspections.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[AwHeck]

amazing that no one noticed.. .an 11 year old obtaining Star? and at his Eagle BOR a year later? Based on that alone, I kind of doubt SFMike's comments....

[SWScouter]

I see no reason why a motivated boy can't achieve the Star rank at the age of eleven, especially if he joined before he turned eleven because he earned Arrow of Light as a Cub Scout. SFMike's son may be the exception on earning Eagle but I see no reason to assume he is lying. A scout is trustworthy isn't he?

 

SWScouter

[birdhunter1971]

I hope someone is still reading this thread because I have a question about placement of some very special patches on the Jack Shirt that I earned in 1994 as an Assistant Scout Master while I was stationed overseas. Those 2 patches are the BSA/Tranatlantic Council D-Day 50 Anniversary patch and the Omaha Beach-Normandy Historic Trail patch which were earned during a service (cleaned and repaired the beaches) project that the BSA in Europe did a few months before the actual anniversary celebration (it was personal due to the fact my grandfather hit Utah Beach).

 

The patches are not big enough to put just one on the back of the shirt. The main reason that I ask is in the uniform guide it still states that a leader's uniform should not be over decorated; I am also military and I worry about setting the example myself, although what others do with what I always thought was basically a patch display item is not something that I would do since I like to follow the guidelines, yes I know that they are just guidelines (hard to break military customs and courtisies).

 

The subsequint trips that the BSA makes out there are now called the Normandy Camporee, and I dont see any guidance for Historic Trail or Camporee patches on the Jack Sirt.

 

I have just gotten back into scouting (my son is a Cub now) and was going to set my Jack Shirt up with all my patches (about 6 or 7 on it now but growing again) any help and guidance would be much appreciated.

 

[Gold Winger]

To be by the book, there are only a few patches that are authorized to be worn on the red jacket. They're buried in the insignia guide but basically you can wear a big one on the back, a program insignia on the left front, PTC on the right front, Philmont Bull or the Loon, and maybe a couple more. Just about any patch that you want to wear on the right pocket of the shirt may be worn there. I use the patch holders and switch that patch out every time I put the shirt on.

 

"unless the commissioner paid for the uniform, he had no right to say what was and wasn't wrong with it."

 

Not quite right. One of the duties of the Commissioner Corps is to do uniform inspections. Also, you son may have owned the shirt but he doesn't own the patches. Wazzat, you say? "All badges and insignia shall remain the propertyof the Boy Scouts of America subject to recall for cause by the Corporation or its duly authorized representative."

 

 

 

 

[birdhunter1971]

Thanks GW, but the patches are a little to big to put on the regular uniform pocket and the guide does not show where to put these patches, they are official BSA patches and only the one states Historic Trails on it and the other does not.

[Gold Winger]

Ahhhhh (heavy sigh), BSA patches are supposed to be small enough to fit on the shirt pocket but sometimes folks just forget about that.

 

If you really want to wear the patches on your jacket, go ahead, the uniform police have no arrest authority. However, you can always get a nice red wool blanket and make it into a poncho and decorate it with your patches. Wear it when sitting around a campfire and I'm sure that it will stimulate some conversations.

[Mariojr67]

I think that any patches sould be ok

[emb021]

"they are official BSA patches and only the one states Historic Trails on it and the other does not."

 

The Insignia Guide does not list every patch made by every BSA council.

 

The patches you received from the Transatlantic Council are the same type as any other historical trail, or camporee, or scout show or such patches. They go on the right pocket.

 

"I think that any patches sould be ok"

 

That's nice, but its not the way it works. The BSA is a uniformed organization, and from day one has specified what patches goes were. It's not so 'anything goes' as some think (or like). But its also not as rigid as something (or would like) either.

 

 

[sdcc57]

To answer a question asked above,I do remember the GREEN woolen jacket.Though it was intended for youth it was also available in adult sizes,and a friend who served with me as a weeekend camp director wore his regularly.

 

As another piece of trivia,apparently there were various producers of certain uniform items,including the wool jacket.Our Director of Camping was very astute in purchasing,and ordered jackets for his use and that of staff for winter Wood Badges from the BSA supply center in the midwest,where he was able to secure the jacket made from a heavier weight material.He did the same for the old wool khaki uniforms,which also came in a much heavier material.I rather doubt that similar variations in uniforms still exist.

[deaker]

Everyone seems to agree that the red wool jacket is "uniform wear" govered by the insignia guide. Therefore, when worn, the jacket needs to conform with the official guidelines.

 

But my question is this: since there is an official jacket, is one out of uniform if they are wearing an "unofficial" jacket? Because there is an official jacket for uniform wear, is one out of uniform if wearing any other jacket with their uniform?

 

I'm seeking the answer in the context of what is technically proper for Wood Badge type "fully uniformed" events. I recocognize the temperance that reality should bring to such matters -- If it is 20 degrees, I am going to stay warm rather than official. But what is the "correct answer"?

 

Thanks,

 

David

[Eamonn]

Jackets and Their Insignia

Multicolored jackets in nylon, wool, and poplin are available for optional wear by youth members and adult leaders. The universal emblem should be worn on the left pocket or, in case of a jacket without chest pockets, in the same area. The Philmont bull emblem is especially designed for the red wool jac-shirt to be sewn on the left side above the pocket. On all jackets the Philmont Scout Ranch, Philmont Training Center, or high-adventure base emblems may be worn centered on the right pocket or in the same relative position if there is no pocket. The Order of the Arrow has adopted the jac-shirt as its official jacket, and members may wear the �6-inch national Order of the Arrow patch centered on the back. The large Philmont, NESA, jamboree, National Camping School, Scout�master Award of Merit, and international par�participant emblems are approved to be worn on the back of the jacket. Only one such emblem may be worn at a time. The Venture/Varsity �letter may be worn on the center of the right side of the red or blaze nylon or poplin jacket. In all cases, the lightweight jacket is an alternate for the jac-shirt, and this insignia may be worn on it in the same way.

 

Right this minute I don't know where my Insignia Guide is!

My reading of this is:

"Multicolored jackets in nylon, wool, and poplin are available for optional wear by youth members and adult leaders."

Being as they are "Optional". The Answer to "Because there is an official jacket for uniform wear, is one out of uniform if wearing any other jacket with their uniform?

Is no.

But even though it is optional is it what might be called a controlled item it should be treated like a part of the uniform.

The Staff at Wood Badge should be as diverse as possible, coming from as many program areas as is possible.

It used to be that the Red Wool Jacket was not part of the Venturing uniform (Now that it's an optional item this might not be the case??)

The wool jacket was never part of the Sea Scouting uniform. So having everyone on a WB Staff uniform in uniform might not a good thing to do.

I have not heard of many courses being run in the winter months? While I've never read that a course can't be held in the winter, with the participants having not been trained in cold weather camping, I don't think it's such a good idea.

If the staff are willing a jacket of some sort could be bought and used for the course?

My fear about this is that it might be seen as some sort of elitist move by the staff. Something I seen a lot of when we had the old course and I was happy to see gone.

Eamonn

 

[deaker]

Thanks for your thoughts. We are having Wood Badge this coming January and February. But being in Texas, this may be summer weather for some of you from other parts of the country or in the low 20's. It could really go either way.

 

My musings are likly more esoteric than any worth actually pondering. Seems the answer is that one may wear any jacket they want over their uniform and still be "official" and properly uniformed. It is only when the scouter chooses to wear one of the official jackets that the additional requirements of the insignia guide kick in.

 

If the cold weather comes in, Ii guess we will all just be wearing whatever cold weather gear we each have. Choosing warmth over uniformity.

 

Thanks again.

 

David

[Gonzo1]

I just checked the woolrich website, but didn't see the red coat listed there.

 

I remember about a year or two ago that someone here mentioned that a manufacturer make a similar red coast for a lot less but the pockets are angled differently, does anyone have any information on this?

 

Thanks,

Gonzo1