yaworski Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 Since the only color should loop that should be worn on a green venturing shirt is the Green loop, why even bother with epaulets and loops for Venturing? Next question. Why don't the loops for the different programs match their programs service star backing? We have Tiger Cubs: No Loop/Orange Circle Cub Scouts: Blue Loop/Gold Circle Boy Scouts: Red Loop/Green Circle Venturing: Green Loop/Red Circle Varsity: Orange Loop/Brown Circle When they set up this silly shoulder loop system, why not just make the loops match the already existing circles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venturer2002 Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 The reason green loops are worn on a Venturing shirt is the same as why Troops wear red--to distinguish themselves from Council and National people. The Tiger cub program now is part of the Cub scout program, so they will be able to wear the blue shirt, etc. Because it is now fully integrated, tiger cub years are now going to be Cub Scout years. Making varsity backings orange would confuse it with cub scouts probably. The color green has always been used for Boy Scout service star backings. And if you think about it, we didn't gain the shoulder loops for quite awhile into our history, so there wasn't anything to contradict. Of course, the BSA was around for awhile before we had Exploring, so green had already been reserved, it would have confused the issue. (Plus wouldn't green backings for explorers be kind of dumb, they'd blend in!) I thought of one other oddity myself: Why is silver always the highest metal in scouting? The silver horndaday,silver eagle palms, etc. The answer is because the BSA had already put the Silver awards for Adult participation in place, and didn't want to detract from them. I hope that I helped you in your quest for knowledge.(This message has been edited by Venturer2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 I believe colors for the service star backs were chosen because they contrast with the color of the uniform shirt. A green backing on a green Venturing shirt or a blue backing on a blue Cub shirt would be hard to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 I have always heard it explained that the reason BSA goes Bronze, Gold, Silver with Palms and uses Silver as its highest awards is because thats the way the military does it. (not to say BSA is a militaristic or paramilitary (dif?) organization)(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 Gold is a lighter color metal than bronze, and silver is a lighter color than gold. Thus, bronze, gold, silver, with the lightest color being the top award, and the darkest color being the first award. So I heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaworski Posted August 12, 2002 Author Share Posted August 12, 2002 "I have always heard it explained that the reason BSA goes Bronze, Gold, Silver with Palms and uses Silver as its highest awards is because thats the way the military does it. " Unfortunately, that's not the way that the military does it for medals. Visit https://www.perscom.army.mil/tagd/tioh/ROTC%20Misc%20NGB%20page/Silver%20and%20Gold%20Insignia.htm and read "Although silver outranks gold insofar as the Armed Forces metal insignia of grade, gold can be considered as outranking silver in medals and decorations and their appurtenances. The order of precedence in establishing medals when using the same design is gold, silver and bronze." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaworski Posted August 12, 2002 Author Share Posted August 12, 2002 Sorry but your answers make no sense. "The reason green loops are worn on a Venturing shirt is the same as why Troops wear red--to distinguish themselves from Council and National people." Only people registered to a Venture crew are supposed to wear the green shirt so Council and National people are out of the loop. "The Tiger cub program now is part of the Cub scout program, so they will be able to wear the blue shirt, etc." Tiger Cubs don't wear the blue shirt. "The color green has always been used for Boy Scout service star backings. And if you think about it, we didn't gain the shoulder loops for quite awhile into our history, so there wasn't anything to contradict." Huh? If green was established as the color for Boy Scouts, why not just give them the green loops? Explorers (when they existed) and Venturers could have the unnecessary red loops. Cub Leaders and Webs could wear gold loops. Varsity Scouts could wear brown loops. Pretty simple, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaworski Posted August 12, 2002 Author Share Posted August 12, 2002 "I believe colors for the service star backs were chosen because they contrast with the color of the uniform shirt. A green backing on a green Venturing shirt or a blue backing on a blue Cub shirt would be hard to see." Since the service star backing pre-date the silly loops by about sixty years, giving Venturers green circles would be silly. Not that BSA doesn't do silly things but it still would be silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 So I stand corrected, Although I am not sure how since its says silver outranks gold. Yaworski, if there is so much wrong in Boy Scouts, why do you stay? I havent reread every entry you have made, but your tone is generally disagreeable on every topic, why do you stay?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdyer56 Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 Actually, Tigers will be wearing the blue shirt as soon as all the orange t-shirts are gone from the warehouse. This should be in a few years. Tim Dyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 Ok here is the historical (or perhaps hysterical) background on the tab colors. Many years ago, for about 30 years or more(and ending in the 60s) scouts wore knee socks with their uniform pants and shorts. These socks, as was the fashion at the time, were held up by garters that rolled up under the cuff of the knee sock. Hanging off the garter was a fringed cloth tab. The tabs were a different color for each of the scouting programs that wore the socks. Red for Exploring, Green for Boy Scouts. When service stars were introduced they were given backgounds that matched the tabs. Green for Boy scouts and red for explorers, yellow was selected for cubs (Blue and Gold theme), light blue for adults. Several years later when the garters and tabs were dropped and the current uniform was introduced, the shoulder tabs took on the colors of the uniform shirts (sort of). Blue was chosen for cubbing to reflect the blue uniform, dark green for explorers to represent the dark green shirts they were recognized for, and red for boy scouts since explorers had green, and green and red were the boy scout colors. Gold tabs selected to represent national level volunteers and professionals. Silver for district and council. When Varsity scouting was introduced they got orange tabs, but a brown star since Tigers already had orange. When Venturing replaced Exploring they inherited the green tabs and the red service stars. Could the shoulder tabs have followed the service star backgrounds? Sure, but Oscar de le Renta, the fashion designer who was paid many many dollars to design the new uniform, decided otherwise. The tabs and service stars have now been in use for decades and it seems unnecessarry to change them now. By the way Tiger years are no longer shown on the orange background. Since Tigers is now a regular den in the pack their year is reflected on a yellow service star like the other cub years. WHILE WE ARE ON THE TOPIC I've noticed cub leaders wearing youth service stars to represent their years as cub leaders and some scout leaders wearing youth service to show their years as a troop leader. Lets check the insignia guide folks ! It's youth stars for youth years and the adult (light blue backgroud) to show adult years OR adult and youth years combined, in which case you do not wear the youth stars. I hope this explained why the colors are what they are. Bob White By the way as far as the silver awards go they used to all be done in real silver. The Eagle Award, the silver palms, Silver Beaver, Silver Antelope, Quartermaster Award, were all in solid silver. Silver was affordable and valued. Solid gold was impractical. The military sequence may have something to do with it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaworski Posted August 12, 2002 Author Share Posted August 12, 2002 "By the way Tiger years are no longer shown on the orange background. Since Tigers is now a regular den in the pack their year is reflected on a yellow service star like the other cub years. " Only for those in the Tiger program in the fall of 2001 or later. Those early Tigers still wear the star with the orange background. "I hope this explained why the colors are what they are." Well, that may be the history but it still makes no sense. I suppose that no one at Scout Headquarters thought to say, "Yo, Oscar. We should use green for boy scouts and red for venturers because those are the historic colors"? (This message has been edited by yaworski) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venturer2002 Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 Yaworski, I believe you are in error. In 1998 when Venturing BSA was formed Scouter magazine stated that people outside of the Crew level would wear the tan shirt with green loops. This has changed. Now anyone involved in Venturing, Nationwide, wears (or should be wearing) the green shirt. I've seen many Council employees (without Crew Numbers) wearing silver loops, and if given an opportunity I think we'd see National wearing them too. If anyone knows differently, please tell me, I hate being ignorant on any subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaworski Posted August 12, 2002 Author Share Posted August 12, 2002 "So I stand corrected, Although I am not sure how since its says silver outranks gold. " Only for rank insignia, not medals. Visit that web site that I referenced and it explains why a silver bar outranks a gold bar. "Yaworski, if there is so much wrong in Boy Scouts, why do you stay? I havent reread every entry you have made, but your tone is generally disagreeable on every topic, why do you stay?" Someone needs to disagree or the world will be run by the likes of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaworski Posted August 13, 2002 Author Share Posted August 13, 2002 "I've seen many Council employees (without Crew Numbers) wearing silver loops, and if given an opportunity I think we'd see National wearing them too. "If anyone knows differently, please tell me, I hate being ignorant on any subject." Well, I wait to be corrected as I hate being ignorant as well. I still think that Venturing should have the red loops to match their circles. FWIW, I'll never be invovlved with Venturing because I don't wear polyester shirts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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