Women and siblings on campouts

[Crossramwedge]

I know this has been probably discussed before, but I need some advice. We have a single MOM , late 20's that wants to join her son on Camp outs. He just crossed over from a visiting pack. I am the CC and have never had any problems in 3 years to really deal with. I have been blessed in this area. I am one of the newer members of the troop (4 YEARS). We have one gentleman who is and has been one of the main cogs for the Troop (ASM)for several years. He is serious about no women camping. I know that the BSA does not descriminate against women and If she joins the Troop as a Committee member she should be allowed to go on the camp outs. I could deal with it. She would have to be informed on how the troop performs on camp outs, no bathroom facilities, no mothering etc. Here is the kicker, she has a 10 year old daughter that she wants to bring along. It just further complicates the situatuon. I am leaning toward telling her to get some one to watch her daughter instead if trying to bring her on these camp outs. Then I hope and pray that men do not leave the Troop because of this. The ones who may leave are really the backbone of the Troop and it would not be a good thing to lose them.

[nrp1488]

Been in a troop that had a mom camping. Mom wasn't a problem but mothering was. It seems to wear off as the boy gets used to the troop. I wouldn't let the daughter go. Seems like a good opportunity for the daughter to do a sleepover at a friends house.

[Scouter&mom]

As a single mom and and an active Scouter in a small troop, I have always been very careful about camping with the boys. There have been weekends, when the trip would not have occurred if I didn't go. I have tried to do my camping when the troop went to district and council events, or at places like the council camp. When the troop camped at more rustic (no bathroom facilities), I tried to be sure we had other adults to go. As one of the few adults that drives a pickup truck, I have hauled gear to campout, and left after camp was set up, to go home for the night. For a camporee that was on a plantation, and the only toilet facilities were port-a-potties, I drove home each night and then back to camporee during day. Two things to remember in my attending, I have been active as a Scout leader (for both Boys and Girls) for over 15 years, and I am much older than the 20 something mom you are talking about.

 

As to the 10 year old girl, she does not belong, unless weekend is billed as family weekend. I don't think any underage child (boy or girl) should be along on Scout campout. I have a friend who's daughter (now 14) always preferred Boy Scout weekends, since she enjoys camping, hiking, etc, but her parents have been careful to keep her camping with the Scouts to appropriate times. This weekend, she will be at camp for Cub Scout family camp weekend, and enjoying keeping the little boys busy with the activities.

[OldGreyEagle]

Sounds like two issues here, one is underage siblings regardless of sex on a scout campout and the other the rather

misogynistic leanings of your adults.

 

Number one, underage siblings have no place on a scouting campout, the campout is geared for the boys and their interests and skill sets, it would be better for the overall health of the troop if the family leaves scouting rather than hauling this underage sibling along.

 

Number two, Allowing Females (ladies) to camp

Show your leadership in the Guide to Safe Scouting, Chapter 1, Youth Protections and Adult Leadership the bolded section that reads:

 

No secret organizations.

The Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders.

 

Note this is in bold denoting BSA policy and all aspects of the program are open to observation by even female parents

 

Yes, she will have to understand she can attend but she can't mother. She has to respect the program the same as any other person on the outing. She gets to enjoy the same accomadations or lack thereof the same as anyone else

 

 

 

[CA_Scouter]

OGE is spot on. No siblings unless family camp. The 'no women' idea is ridiculous. Perhaps it might be acceptable to your 'gentleman' if the woman wore a burka. Just a thought.

 

;-)

 

 

[Beavah]

The Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders.

 

Nah, dat's not what this means, eh? If that were the case we could never limit parent participation on Philmont or other high adventure trips, which we certainly do. We also limit parents based on health conditions, level of training, and all kinds of things. And some CO's certainly do limit female participation on campouts as being inconsistent with their faith/values/mission. BSA is just fine with that, along with limiting female participation when separate quarters aren't available.

 

Crossramwedge, yeh certainly can and should restrict Boy Scouting outings to boy scout youth. Yeh can but probably shouldn't restrict campouts to no-moms-allowed. But you'll want to really finesse things to avoid lots of problems. Between your guys-only adult leaders and a mom's natural tendency to mother, that's just ripe for confusion and conflict.

 

Da question in my mind is whether this mom is an avid outdoorswoman, or whether she's just hovering and wants to be around on her kid's first trip(s). If it's the former, my experience is that she'll slowly break down the old boys' club as they learn to respect her abilities. If it's the latter, yeh might want to coach the guys that she needs to come on a few things to be comfortable with her boy coming out with them, and they should hold their nose and deal with it. Probably she won't be out very often because she'll want to stay with / do other stuff with daughter.

 

Beavah

 

[AnniePoo]

Daughter shouldn't go on standard Troop campouts.

 

Regarding the Mom--There should be the same rule for attendance by any parent, regardless of sex. First rule - no excessive interference by parents (some Dads can "mother" just as bad as Moms).

 

This isn't the 1950's. If a Dad won't go if a Mom is there, then tell him, "Sorry to hear that - we'll see you when we get back!".(This message has been edited by AnniePoo)

[scoutldr]

Yeah, what Annie said.

 

"He is serious about no women camping." Sorry, but he doesn't get a vote on that issue, unless as Beavah said, it's your CO's policy. If he chooses to harm the troop over that by leaving and taking other leaders with him, then he's probably not a good role model anyway.

 

That being said, I personally would discourage ANY parent from shadowing their new Scout...at least for the first year. He needs a chance to "be one of the guys" and assimilate into the troop. I, and everyone here, acted differently when our parent was with us. Didn't have near as much fun. But in the end, if she insists, you can't stop her from attending and "observing".

 

And no daughter. That's why they have Girl Scouts.

[gcnphkr]

There have been a few campouts that would not have happened without women going. They were the second (and 3rd/4th) adult. Some can have a tendency to hover, but I've fathers that are as bad. The women understand that this is basically a boys club and if they are going to be bothered by dirt, smoke, creepy crawlies, no toilets and the occasional fart then they will be happier not going.

[nolesrule]

Siblings, whether boy or girl, should not be on any scouting trip (unless specifically designed to be a family event).

 

As for the parents, I would use this as a recruiting opportunity. Explain to the parent that unless there is a desperate need to meet the needed adult requirement for a given trip, we limit the adults to those that are registered with the troop. Hand the adult an application and give them a list of openings that need to be filled (along with the responsibilities for each of them) and let them choose which one they would like to take.

 

During my 7 years as a scout, I can't remember a single time a non-registered parent came on one of our trips except as a Webelos parent when a Webelos den joined us or on our official biennial family camping trips.

 

I think the issue of women being welcome on a trip has satisfactorily been addressed in this thread.

[AnniePoo]

Registered adult leaders in the troop should all be allowed to come along. Doesn't matter if they're male or female, rich or poor, snoring or non-snoring, black or white, or thin or (for the time being anyway) fat.

[OldGreyEagle]

Ah But Annie, does that mean that unregistered parents may not come on outings? If so, how will they learn that its a blast and lots of fun and becomming a leader is a lot of fun

[Beavah]

Registered adult leaders in the troop should all be allowed to come along.

 

Yah, that's true for some things, but certainly not all.

 

Registered leaders who can't swim can't come on some boating outings, as a gross example. We've told some XL adults that we can't accommodate 'em at climbing activities. I think Philmont these days is limiting the number of adults per crew to a max of three or four. Otherwise, what happens on some high adventure trips is there are more adults than youth, and they pretty much "take over" the trip makin' the experience weaker for the youth. Sometimes parents are gawd-awful drivers, and yeh need to invite them not to drive.

 

All kinds of reasons to make additional restrictions, eh?

 

I like to see women out who are good outdoorswomen, eh? I think they're a great example for the lads. Besides, we need a pipeline for Venturing leaders! But there's ways to do that well and with sensitivity when you're breakin' into da boys club. We can talk about being willing to lose the guys, but the reality of most troops is that if those guys walk, the troop folds. Or at least you lose a lot of youth. How many kids are yeh willing to sacrifice? Just depends on your and your CO's view of da mission, I suppose. Still best to be thoughtful.

 

Beavah

 

[HICO_Eagle]

I'm a bit of a die-hard old fart in attitude but your stick-in-the-mud no-women ASM needs to grow up a little. The mom needs to get registered and trained properly but there shouldn't be any issue with her going on the campout as long as she behaves properly. If she goes, she goes as an ASM or CM, not as Mom. It's not her fault if he has so little self-control that she might present some kind of temptation (even assuming she'd respond to him).

 

The 10-year-old daughter is a whole other matter. Teenage boys can be enough of a handful without throwing hormones into the mix. I don't have a problem with younger brothers as long as someone else is there to take care of them (we have a dad who likes to bring his Cub son; he takes care of him and helps out with rest of camp, no problem) -- I'm there to help the boys, not babysit.

[AnniePoo]

Yep, I was being a bit too general with the "every registered parent" statement. My point is that we all need to stop thinking in terms of "Mom" or "Dad" and start dealing with parents as PARENTS, or leaders as LEADERS (i.e. gender neutral). Adults involved with troops and packs should be judged on their qualifications, good qualities, bad qualities, abilities, etc., and not treated any differently because of their sex (G2SS notwithstanding).

 

It's 2009 for goodness sake!!! Time for the good old boys to grow up into mature adults!!