Two Deep Leadership

[fotoscout]

Hi Barry,

 

The G2SS section on YP appears to me to be identical to YP Training. Abbreviated but identical. Having said that, it does require two deep leaders. Two leaders or one leader & and a parent. I see no accommodation for a group of three. The two deep requirement is on the first page of text in the G2SS (uh-oh Im starting to sound like Bob). This particular section is set in the overall context of Scouting. Further on in the G2SS, specific YP issues are discussed for different situations such as trips and outings.

 

The really odd thing here is that the CS Leader Book refers to two deep only in the context of trips and outings.

 

We are told that two deep is the rule, no deviations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dsteele]

Two Deep Leadership is required for all trips and outings. No one on one contact is also a rule.

 

I think a lot of confusion leading to discussions such as this happen in part because it's easier to tell people they have to follow a rule in all circumstances than to open things up to interpretation.

 

Yes, a den leader can have a den meeting in his/her home without another adult if there is more than one boy. The question came up earlier and is an excellent point . . . what sane adult wants to work with a bunch of kids without another adult?

 

DS

[FScouter]

"At least three people" is another way of saying no one-on-one contact, which is never permitted in Scouting.

[fotoscout]

Why have a policy that is exclusive of the event that causes the leaders, and boys, to be most vulnerable? Why have a policy that is exclusive of the event that causes the leaders and the boys to spend the vast majority of their time together?

 

I am of course talking about the den meeting.

[dsteele]

I think I'm interpreting the question properly. Are you asking why the policy wouldn't apply to den meetings?

 

One: One adult with six-eight boys present would be unable to abuse one or all of the boys.

 

Two: The boys would be unable to accuse the adult of improper behavior unless all were in agreement. Well, they could accuse, but it wouldn't take an investigative officer long to figure out their vast conspiracy to falsly accuse an adult. When I say investigative office, I'm not talking about BSA people, I'm referring to people with badges or social service credentials.

 

However, safety would come to mind in case something happened and the solitary adult had to take a kid to the hospital and leave the other boys alone. This is most likely to happen during a trip or an outing than at a den meeting, which is my guess as to why two deep does not apply as policy to regular meetings.

 

Three: Suppose you have a den that consistently can't come up with a second adult. That den would never meet under the two-deep leadership policy and would quickly die and leave the boys with no Scouting at all.

 

Also, I've said that it's best to always have two-deep leadership, but the policy requires it only for trips and outings.

 

Do I think there should always be two adults at each den meeting, troop meeting, etc. The answer to that question is yes. However, if I'm asked to interpret the policy of the Boy Scouts of America -- and that's my job in my local council -- the answer is that two deep leadership is required on all trips and outings. The policy does not say, trips, outings and regular meetings.

 

No one on one contact applies to all things, but two deep leadership applies to trips and outings.

 

I have given the best answer I can as to the "why" of the policy. The rest is open to debate among the good people on this board.

 

If you want a local interpretation in your council of what leadership is required and when, call the council service center of your council or your district commissioner.

 

DS(This message has been edited by dsteele)

[Fat Old Guy]

"what sane adult wants to work with a bunch of kids without another adult?"

 

It was pretty common back in the 60s. Maybe kids were better behaved back then.

 

 

[Twocubdad]

In our area, two deep leadership is enforced with no exceptions, even with some fairly silly results (like two adults escorting one Scout to the bathroom across a crowded day camp). If people are under the impression that two-deep leadership is required 100% of the time, I see no reason to dissuade them of that notion.

 

DS writes: Three: Suppose you have a den that consistently can't come up with a second adult. That den would never meet under the two-deep leadership policy and would quickly die and leave the boys with no Scouting at all.

 

If I were the den leader and none of the parents were willing to even serve as a warm body in the back of the room, the den would die a quick death indeed.

 

 

 

[fotoscout]

Twice now in this thread, posters have commented that child abuse is unlikely in the den meeting. We need to correct and change that thought process! Child abuse can take place anywhere, and at anytime. I shutter to say it, but somewhere across this great land, with a house full of people, some young child was being abused yesterday while the turkey was on the table.

 

Its as likely to happen at a den meeting, as it is at camp. Remember that den meetings are not always with 6-8 boys. Many den meetings occur with only 2 boys present. The YP policy is written to protect both the leaders and the boys. Please dont allow yourselves to be lulled into comfort zone simply because youre having a den meeting in your own home.

 

[NWScouter]

The same thing can be said about the outing that DS said about the den meeting, just change a couple of words:

---Suppose you have a Troop that consistently can't come up with a second adult. That Troop would never camp under the two-deep leadership policy and would quickly die and leave the boys with no Scouting at all. ----

It doesnt make sense there as it doesnt make sense in a den meeting.

 

Even our video "A Time to Tell" points out the danger of not have two deep leadership and the potential failure of one on one rule. The segment with the "club" and the guy who has a bunch of kids come over.

Though every rule that we have is just a barrier and can be avoided, for example if two leaders are in cahoots. We need to vigilant in watching for the signs of sexual abuse in our children and most of all listen

 

[Bob White]

Den meetings are not the only situation where two-deep leadership is not required. Merit badge counselors are not required to have a second adult, but the scout is required to have a buddy.

 

As others here have stated there are three different guidelines guidelines.

1) two-deep leadership is requireed fro tripps and outings

2) No adult is to be alone with a scout who is not there child

3) Scouts must use the buddy system

 

I am a huge supporter of always having two adults. But the rules do not specifically require that as long as the scout is not alone with the adult.

 

BW