First Class in 5 months

[Tampa Turtle]

Agree that an active program can move teh boys along and that you should raise expectations. Especially those first two years when the boys can be very enthusiastic.

 

We had a award --the Golden Spoon-- given to the Patrol with the best tasting and ambitious campout menu. Some Patrols really had to step up their game and we started seeing a lot more varied cooking techniques and multi-part meals. Naturally we had samples to judge.

 

Boys did steak over flames, chicken parm, terriyaki, salads, omelets, etc. Was a lot of fun to watch.

 

All for plastic spoon on a wood block spray painted gold.

[Beavah]

Yah, IM_Kathy, I hear yeh. Though yeh missed da whole bit about meal planning requirements in there. With a NSP it takes many months just to get through da testing of the First Class plan and cook da patrol's meals for a weekend bit.

 

You're right, though. If a lad is cookin' every day at home for 5 months, he is goin' to learn how to cook. Then all yeh need is the adjustment to LNT field cookin', eh? Fires, dutch ovens, one-burner gas stoves and the like. There are few very amusin' episodes of Top Chef where a bunch of professional chefs with many years of experience completely bungle cookin' in the da field (even though they have far more resources than a lad does on a campout). So I'm not sure da transition is quite as simple as yeh suggest.

 

Cookin' of course is only one part of da requirements, eh? Then yeh have all of First Aid. How long do yeh suppose it takes a lad to really be able to recognize and respond to shock? How much practice to do a good improvised splint? There are somethin' like 30 different first aid situations that yeh have to learn to recognize, understand, and treat.

 

Then there's water safety and water rescue. How much practice do yeh suppose is required for a lad to really be able to competently perform a water rescue safely?

 

Then there's basic land navigation and orienteering. Now I've been teachin' those things for many decades, and for 11-year-olds da process of making the map mean somethin' in their own head just seems to require a lot of time and practice in da field. Yah, yah, it's easier in da parts of da country that have more contours, but even so.

 

Then there's...

 

Then there's...

 

Can da son of an Outward Bound instructor and a nurse who has been doin' harder campouts than most Boy Scout troops since he was 6 and who helped teach Wilderness First Aid every month since he was 9 get things done in 5 months if mom and dad homeschooled and spent 3 hours a day on practice and on da remaining skills? Perhaps. Not sure why da family is botherin' with Boy Scouts, though.

 

Can every boy in an average troop that only camps quarterly achieve that?

 

Absolutely not.

 

 

 

[Peregrinator]

Not sure why da family is botherin' with Boy Scouts, though.

 

I think this is the second time I've seen this comment, and the second time it has puzzled me. Isn't scouting about more than simply learning outdoor skills?

[Brewmeister]

I was thinking the same thing...the whole aims and methods thing, and being more than just a camping club that hands out cloth patches from time to time.

[Twocubdad]

Having written one of those comments, let me explain they are in the context of a discussion of a Scout earning First Class in five months. The hypothesis was that a Scout with exceptional outdoor skills could conceivably make FC in five months.

 

My point was precisely in agreement with the question you are asking. If a Scout has already mastered the T-2-1 skills and is being allowed to blow the program, WHEN is he engaging in those other aims of the program?

 

Developing character, citizenship and the ability to make ethical decisions takes time. It's not a five hour merit badge class. It's lying in your warm sleeping bag on a cold rainy morning and deciding to crawl out and make breakfast for your patrol because it's your turn -- or because you are patrol leader and the guy whose turn it is won't get up. And it's figuring out how to deal with that other guy. Those little chacter lessons are unpredicatable and inconsistent. They're unlikely to occur in a five month window. You will, however experience many of them over a seven-year Scouting career.

 

And that is my underlying point in all these advancement debates. The kid who blows through FC in five months, and will presumably continue on the trajectory through the upper ranks, is -- in my experience -- less likely to stay with the program once he has completed the advancement program.

[tgrimstead]

"Developing character, citizenship and the ability to make ethical decisions takes time. It's not a five hour merit badge class. "

 

Very true. Many of us adults are still working on it.

 

"The kid who blows through FC in five months, and will presumably continue on the trajectory through the upper ranks, is -- in my experience -- less likely to stay with the program once he has completed the advancement program."

 

So if they are motivated enough to complete in 5 months what others take 12 to do they will loss suddenly lose interest and leave the program? seems an odd thought.

 

Perhaps the answer would be to do away with Rank altogether?

 

Yours In Cheerful Service,

Tim

[Brewmeister]

Perhaps the answer would be to do away with Rank altogether?

 

Heresy!

[5yearscouter]

If a scout comes into a boy scout troop with a bunch of existing skills and could feasibly actually EARN 1st class in only a handful or 2 of months,

why would you ask why they are in Boy Scouts if they already know it all and have the skillz?

I would hope they are in your troop because your troop camps and hikes and backpacks and canoes, and makes campfires and does all sorts of things that the young man can do with boys his age instead of always doing it with his family going out hunting or whatever.

 

Why would you not be jumping for joy that you have a young boy with skillz that your troop could put to good use?

You know boy led and boys teaching other boys scout skillz??

 

That seems like a perfect place to put that young man--teaching his patrol mates, challenging him to bring all of his patrol up to that level, no man left behind kind of thinking.

 

And yes, that is where my own boys are. They would have had the scout skillz even if they weren't scouts. They enjoy learning, teaching, practicing, guiding other young men that wouldn't have gotten that outdoors stuff without Boy Scouts. They enjoy having their patrol earn the golden spoon and outcook the adults. and be able to tie knots around the adult scoutmaster and ASM's. And they enjoy the OA ceremonial team and the national jamboree and the merit badges that aren't required for eagle and a chance to go out to the nuclear power plant.

 

Just like the scouts who earn rank slowly, some of them get a good scouting education even if they earn rak fast. It's possible to get a lousy scout education either way--amount of time it takes is only one small part of the equation.

 

Go too slowly and test and retest always setting the bar higher has some negative consequences too. You get young men who came into the troop being about to outcook the adults on a campfire or campstove always feeling like they can't cook well enough to get their book signed no matter what they do until that magical 1 year point is past. so why bother?

 

or go so slowly thru the stuff that if the boy had any knowledge of the stuff going into the program, you've lost all the spark and enthusiasm and they've forgotten half of what they already knew.

 

Finding a balance between too fast and too slow, and accomodating speed to the interests and ability of the scout, and seeing that a boy advances at his own pace. Don't put up artificial roadblocks of needing to see a perfectly smooth cheese sauce before you'll sign off the cooking requirements. Don't get ridiculous about it.

[IM_Kathy]

I remember when my son was a new crossover - troop was going to do a coffee can campout. as in all that they could have for cooking their own meals would have to fit and be stored in a coffee can (nothing to keep things cool and everything cooked over a cook fire with own mess kit). My son being new and not having cooked over fire but once before got home and figured out different things he would be able to take without needing kept cold and would fit - he then went to store with me and bought the different things he would need. Then each night he pulled out his mess kit and tried cooking one of his ideas each night over the grill (while he didn't use a wood fire it was best he could do at our place) and he learned a lot. He learned he better not do spaghetti because he kept spilling water when moving pan and that would put out fire, he learned what kind of foods he could haul without needing to keep cold, he learned what foods he could freeze and have thaw just in time.

 

that began his love of cooking. every campout he would go around to the other patrols - ask what they cooked, how they cooked it, spices, and get a taste. I can't begin to count the things he tried at camp that he reproduced here at home or the things he first tried at home and then cooked on a campout. His patrol LOVES it when he was cook. And he's always watching ads and will plan his menu based on what's on sale and how he could stretch the food budget. How many patrols have BBQ ribs for supper???

 

and yep now at 16 he will cook full course meals for our family... he spent a day this summer cooking pork loin for our daughter's graduation party and all our neighbors were quite excited when we had left overs and went around delivering them all some extras.

[JMHawkins]

So if they are motivated enough to complete in 5 months what others take 12 to do they will loss suddenly lose interest and leave the program? seems an odd thought.

 

Not odd at all. If they're that motivated, then the Advancement Method is something they respond really well to. Unfortunately, because it's made super easy, they blow through all the available Advancement Method in under two years and then there's nothing left of that method to challenge them with. They're "done."

 

That's the real tragedy of a dumbed-down Advancement Method - it fails to retain the very scouts who respond best to it.

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939]

->Not sure why da family is botherin' with Boy Scouts, though.

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939]

->it fails to retain the very scouts who respond best to it.

[JMHawkins]

But what are the retention goals? Say a boy earns Eagle early in his 14th year (or doesn't).

 

So, once there's an Eagle rank on his shirt, there's nothing left for him to learn in Scouts?

 

 

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939]

-So, once there's an Eagle rank on his shirt, there's nothing left for him to learn in Scouts?-

 

That's beside the point. There is always something left to learn, at age 8 and at age 80.

 

The point is there are also other things to learn elsewhere. Whose input matters the most in deciding if and when it's appropriate for the Scout to move on to other pursuits?

 

When the Scout leaves, is it an unjust injury to the troop? Has he committed some wrong?

 

The fact that he could learn more by staying is immaterial... he could also learn more by selecting one of many other paths that can't all pursued simultaneously.

[JMHawkins]

When the Scout leaves, is it an unjust injury to the troop?

 

I'm talking about the troop failing the scout, not the other way around. I guess you construed retention as something the Troop does for it's own benefit. I think it's something they do for the benefit of the Youth.