Eagle Awards Through Apeeals

[Eagle732]

And thus the reason why every unit's program is different.

It would be a shame if we all did things the same way.

 

 

 

 

[Basementdweller]

While there should be different programs to chose from......There should be one standard.....

 

Parlor vs. Outdoor vs. High Adventure troops

 

 

Swimming in a strong manner is a super easy fix......National takes a group of 100 scouts who can swim decently time them.....Throw out the fastest 10 and slowest 10 and average the rest....That becomes the target time...

 

Let me spin a thread....

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

I am increasingly sold on the standard Beavah describes, which leaves substantial responsibility in the hands of unit leaders to decide how to run their programs. Some may have high standards and others may be interested in greasing the skids for boys to achieve Eagle. I'm not especially concerned about reigning in either.

 

This argues for treating many of BSA's "rules" as guidelines to be interpreted in reasonable ways by unit leaders.

 

It might be that at the margin there are irresponsible leaders who should be reigned in by council leaders, and that's probably fine too.

 

I usually look at BSA "rules" carefully. Often --- most of the time, I find them to be effective guidelines to good ways to operate the program. But from time to time they get in the way of operating a quality program, and when they do I am increasingly willing to modify those guidelines to choose a quality program over a rule bound program.

[Eagle732]

Some requirements are fairly easy to set a standard for that everyone can agree on, some are a little more open for interpretation.

 

I believe we should give the SM the right and the responsibility to interpret the requirements, within reason, as he sees fit.

 

 

[click23]

I feel sorry for the boys in some of these troops.

 

I can quote multiple sections from the G2A that should set everyone straight, but I know I would be wasting my time. There are just some people that are so set in their ways that nothing will make them change their minds.

 

The issue is very simple, no matter how high we prop the Eagle rank up, it is no more than a set of requirements that are clearly spelled out in the boy scout handbook, and no one has the authority add anything to these requirements.

[Eagle732]

Oh there's lots of room for interpretation.

 

Take 2nd Requirement Class 8c for instance; "Demonstrate water rescue methods by reaching with your arm or leg, by reaching with a suitable object, and by throwing lines and objects.

Does that need to be done in the water?

 

Or how about 2nd Class Requirement 10 "Earn an amount of money agreed upon by you and your parent, then save at least 50 percent of that money"

How long does the scout have to save the money for?

 

How about 1st Class 9a "Tell what precautions must be taken for a safe trip afloat."

Can I ask the scout to describe each point I ask him about or does he need to be able to recite all 9 points from memory and describe them?

 

Why don't we let the SMs run there program the way they see fit as long as it's reasonable. After all that's what is happening anyway.

[Eagle92]

Click,

 

You are correct in that no one can add to the requirements.

 

BUT no one can subtract fromt he requirements either.

 

And the problem as I see is in the interpretation of "doing" the requirements.

 

I posted in another thread on this topic that previous editions of the BSHB had the term "master the skills" ( all bold and caps are emphasis, not shouting) to describe when a Scout should seek sign off. That is no longer in the current BSHB, although a similar phrase the badge represents what the scout can do, not a reward for what he has done".

 

At least in my troop and the scouts I encountered as a youth for the most part, that was the expectation, and hence the standard.

 

But then national came up with this First Class, First Year program, and all the current literature promotes this, including the training literature. Let's face it, when the IOLS syllabus encourages trainers to give out score cards with the different T-2-1 skills on it, and sign off the leader going through the training after doing it, that encourages the "One and Done" mentality I see arising in scouting today.

 

Also our society has much lower expectations of youth these days. People I work with cannot believe some of the stuff I did as a youth in Scouting, and twoof them were career interst Exploring leaders! And let's face it, when 25 year olds are considered "children" and not responsible adults, you got problems.

 

In fact on the radio this morning, I heard how one guy would not want his 15 y.o. son to learn how to defend himself in a Columbine like situation by attacking the gunmen with whatever is at hand AS A LAST RESORT(emphasis). Anyone still read "Scouts in Action"? People just do not have expectations anymore.

[JoeBob]

92: I think you hit it:

"Also our society has much lower expectations of youth these days."

 

'rismith', 'fred', 'johnponz' and to some degree 'click' are all vehemently arguing that we should not expect high achievements from our Eagle Scouts.

"Eagle should NOT be respected that much more then all the other ranks."

"no matter how high we prop the Eagle rank up, it is no more than a set of requirements"

 

I salute and thank those of you who hold true to the old-time standards, for every rank. It is easy to lower expectations, but damn near impossible to raise them up again.

 

When a boy attains BSA's highest rank, he should feel like he has really done something worthwhile, not passed an open book test.

He should know that he EARNED Eagle through his hard work, diligent studies, and selfless service. He should not be proud of Eagle because he parsed the words found in the GTA on the internet (Inspired no doubt by discussions on Scouter.com?) and negotiated his way out of having to attend OUTINGS or being active. Being able to squirm around nuances will really help him contribute to society in his future...

 

To those of you who argue for paper Eagles and Once and Done: Shame on you!

Quit trying to bring us down to your level.

Expect more from your young men.

 

You will be impressed by what they can do.

[Basementdweller]

Seattle the only people who know that for sure are the boys around him and his SM.

 

 

 

[Eagle732]

The boys in the troop know it too.

 

[JMHawkins]

This thread has helped me clarify something in my own mind.

 

 

I don't give a rats rear end about Eagle Scout rank.

 

 

When we've gotten to the point that people can't have a civil discussion about ways to use the Eagle rank portion of the Advancement Method in a good unit program, then we've gotten to the point where the tool has outlived it's usefulness.

 

Rank, any rank, is just a tool for guiding and encouraging scouts towards becoming good men. A set of requirements can give a scout structure for his effots when he doesn't know himself which way to go. "What sort of stuff should I learn? Well, the book here says learn how to do first aid for serious bleeding, and also to learn to swim..." And when he learns new things, it gives us - the adults who are supposed to represent the larger Society outside his family - it gives us the change to recognized him and grant him the privlige of displaying our recognition to others by wearing a badge.

 

But giving him a badge isn't the goal, and it's clear too many adults now act that way when it comes to the Eagle Scout rank.

 

It's at most one-sixth of one-eighth of the program. It shouldn't generate so much anger. I think BSA pushing it as a marketing campaign has been a mistake.

[Eagle732]

My favorite B-P quote:

"The Scoutmaster must be alert to check badge hunting as compared to badge earning.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello JMHawkins,

 

 

>

 

 

I agree with that. As Scoutmaster, First Class was the most important rank for a Scout to achieve, and that's where I put the emphasis of my program. Scouts who were motivated were welcome to do more, and many did.

 

I don't see pushing it as a marketing campaign as necessarily being bad. What's bad is deliberately designing an advancement and appeals process designed to override the preferences and programs of units in order to give out Eagle awards units don't think have been earned.

 

THAT's what tends to cheapen the brand, in my opinion.

 

 

[Basementdweller]

JM...had a discussion with a SM who was very proud his crossover scout earned first class in 5 months....keep in mind these are parlor scouts....Their outdoor program stinks....

 

Initially I was furious, I am better now.....My thought was HOW dare he short cut the requirements.....

 

Bottom line is so what......his boys will get Eagle at 13 with no effort and leave the troop because the entire point of his program is advancement.... With a program like that, your done when you get to Eagle....

 

I hope that my scouts will hang around till they are 17 or 18 and be excited and challenged by the program.....

 

JM....I am in your camp that advancement beyond first class is kinda irrelevant....

[JMHawkins]

I don't particularly care what age a scout is when he makes Eagle. I'm more interested in how old he is when he attends his last meeting as a youth member, and I hope that's 17.9 years old or thereabouts. Aging out an active scout who has participated in a challenging, meaningful program, that's my hope for them.

 

I kinda like the outdoor achievement medal, because it focuses on planning and leading outdoor adventures.

 

But all of it, the ranks, the awards, etc., they're just tools for us to use to help guide the scouts.