Eagle Awards Through Apeeals

[Basementdweller]

I got a huge laugh.......rismith......

 

Our district needs trained, they are probably a lot like you quoting crap they don't read or even understand......Did you actually read what you posted from the GTA regarding boards of review?????

 

from your quote

 

"method(s) for conducting Eagle Scout boards of review: whether unit committees or the council or district advancement committees administer them"

 

 

shakin my head...

[Eagle92]

Ris,

 

In regards to my example. Granddad was SM, dad was ASM, mom was CC or MC, and all three plus an uncle or two were MBCs. He was a 3rd generation, and all the males in the family were Eagles. Problem wasn't caught until the district EBOR.

 

Base,

 

Agree with ya 110% BUT (emphasis) I also blame National with their First Class First Year emphasis, IMHO after 1989 was when I started seeing this problem and that was when FCFY came about AND previous national training committee and their literature. I distinctly remember the IOLS syllabus stating that you should hand out scorecards to participants so that as they do the skills, you sign them off, just like you would a scout. IMHO, that is promoting the "One and Done" mentality.

 

And that is the sad thing: new leaders coming back from training bringing back this mentality.

 

Oh and good luck with your scouts kicking butt at camporee.

[shortridge]

Regarding one and done - I agree that mastery should be the goal. But I would have a real concern if a BOR at any level was quizzing Scouts about specific requirements or topics of MBs earned years ago. That's a different kettle of fish from Scout skills used every month or so. I certainly would not have been able at age 17 to recall every detail about the tribes I studied for Indian Lore, or the type of weave I did for Basketry, or the range rules used in Rifle Shooting. Those skills and knowledge are not necessarily used regularly, and are not necessarily legit topics to quiz a Scout about.

[rismith]

Basement,

 

Since you're so buddy buddy with the District Trainer why don't you go ahead and ask him about BSA's coverage of jet skis and ATVs. Or if they are even ever allowed for scout sponsored events.

[qwazse]

No BD! Don't ask! You know what will happen.

 

The GTA seems to give units pretty wide lattitude, so actually I think most troops are indeed "by the book".

 

Most boys are by the book. In fact I'm usually trying to get them to chill and not make requirements seem harder than they actually are.

 

If something is confusing, I give my DAC a call. He'll research, and give me a call back. His answers have proven to be solid and when there was a conflict, the calls to national came down in his favor.

 

So I'm taking what lattitude is evident at face value and running with it.

[Basementdweller]

RISMITH

 

you need to shut your mouth about things which you KNOW NOTHING. Open up that scouting magazine that comes in the mail. I am calling you uneducated about what is currently happening in scouting.

 

YOU are the problem with the BSA quoting rule books and repeating things you think just might be right. Research before you post in the future.

 

The jet skis and ATV's are scout sponsored at resident camps....It was a pilot program that now looks like it might have been successful.

 

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/AlumniAlive/Program/2011_12_options.aspx

 

 

http://www.psrweb.org/ Offers ATV's

 

http://www.eccbsa.org/Camping/Pamlico%20Sea%20Base.aspx offers Jet skis.

 

 

Your credibility as a poster has now dropped to zero

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Q.....you know my situation.......My old district staff is as ignorant as the previous poster........

 

The new district staff is really trying......

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

A favorable word on district leadership? Basement's account must have been hacked!

 

Seriously --- what has been happening there?

[Eagle732]

"Since you're so buddy buddy with the District Trainer why don't you go ahead and ask him about BSA's coverage of jet skis and ATVs. Or if they are even ever allowed for scout sponsored events."

 

rismith, if I were to ask this question what would the correct answer be? What is BSA's coverage on jet skis and ATVs?

[Eagle92]

Short,

 

Like I mentioned, wasn't trying to "interrogate" him, but asking conversationally. In this instance, I was trying to learn about the new area I moved into. I wasn't looking for details except, "What are some of the local tribes that are in or were in this area?" Oh, and some advice n where to look for info.

 

BD,

 

Glad the new leadership is trying.

[Basementdweller]

The DE has been replaced.

DE fired district chair, the training chair, the activities chair before he left. The entire roundtable commisioner staff resigned in protest.

 

The district advancement chair resigned over an eagle scout who the troop committee denied.....appealed to the district denied......council over ruled and awarded the patch....

 

Only one who survived was the district popcorn guy

[Beavah]

Yah, easy out there. It always amazes me how worked up adults can get over a bunch of youth awards.

 

Perhaps we can start by admittin' something.

 

There is no real national standard for any rank. The only way to establish a true national standard for a rank or badge would be to implement a national standardized test for da rank. Bring your number 2 pencil .

 

The reality is that there are lots of different standards for ranks.

 

Yeh go to some troops, and a boy might fumble through an answer once and forget it the next week.

 

Yeh go to other troops, and a boy only gets signed off if he passes everything on an adventure challenge weekend where he has to perform every skill to spec, months after he was first taught it.

 

They're workin' from da same requirements, but they're administering their programs differently and interpreting da requirements differently. That's just da reality. There is no standard.

 

For da second group of troops like SeattlePioneer is talkin' about, conflict can arise when a parent really is lookin' for a different sort of troop, one that will chalk up badges faster. That happens mostly when new families who are stuck in cub scout mode join, or lads transfer in from a different style troop. It can also happen like in GKlose's case when a set of more active adult leaders with a different vision have tightened things up, so a lad who could "get away with" stuff before no longer can. That's when yeh start hearin' parents yell about "don't retest" or "don't add", because it reflects on their self-image and ego more than on the boy.

 

For a troop like da first sort, conflicts can arise at districts or on internet forums when someone from a troop with different standards starts sayin' that their kids aren't up to snuff, eh? Typically that happens at Eagle time, because that's da only time that any outside person has any input into da troop's advancement process. That's when yeh hear da adults start yellin' about "don't retest" and "don't add", because it reflects on the adults' self-image and program as much as it does the boy.

 

In da first case, the best choice is to go find a troop that's a better fit for what da parent seems to want. In da second case it's much harder, eh? In that case I think da district has to relax and be supportive of the unit, and down the road perhaps suggest a bit some tightening of standards.

 

So what do we do with da conflicts on internet forums?

 

I think we just share. Sometimes with a great deal of energy. That's OK, though, because as long as we can do that respectfully, folks get a sense that there are other approaches out here in Scout-land. Yeh really can expect boys to be able to plan and cook complex meals on their own six months later; yeh really don't have to get out da number two pencil for every requirement.

 

My problem is that folks who try to smack folks around with quotes from da guidebooks are tryin' to engage in a fight, rather than a discussion. So they get one. My habit tends to be to try to point out da counter-quotes that they are missing, since book quoting tends to be a novice sort of thing, and yeh have to talk in simple terms for beginners. That rarely works, but I try. Others try logic. Others try obedience.

 

Perhaps we should instead just try talkin' about kids.

 

I think SeattlePioneer is takin' the middle-ground with his initial proposal, eh? He's talkin' about honoring the local troop's standards, because we don't really have any way of controllin' those. At the same time, he's allowin' for a lad to go to national to get an award from them instead of from the troop. This is essentially what we have on a de facto basis anyways, eh? We can't make a bunch of troop adults throw the boy a party.

 

An alternative is to allow appeals in both directions. Troops routinely award ranks for standards less than "proficiency", even though "proficiency" is the official BSA standard in the Rules & Regulations. We don't offer an appeals mechanism to remove the rank from a scout who isn't proficient. Perhaps we should. Any registered adult or youth leader can appeal another boy's rank award on the grounds he can't demonstrate proficiency in da requirements. They can shout "don't subtract!" and "a scout learns first, and only later is he individually tested by doing!" as much as we hear "don't add" and "no retesting!"

 

Beavah

 

 

[qwazse]

Maybe that's as good a reason as any to encourage a target date for eagle of age 14 or 15. The probability of a boy having every scout skill, symbol meaning, and point of history in his head at the time of BOR is higher.

 

Fact is, a 17 year old boy who forgot WT Boyce's name and knot or two, but is working on understanding his religion and his sense of moral obligation will get a pass from us. (At least at the SMC. We read the riot act and warn him to study chapter 1 of the BSHB before he meets the board.)

 

A twelve year old, on the other hand, we might ask if he wants a do-over, maybe next week. In other words, after going over what he has or has not retained, we'll put it on him and ask if he should make rank not knowing x.

 

Participation? That "invisible boy" had better be able to tell me what good he was doing instead of scouting and why he felt we weren't worth the time of day to call and explain. Why? Because I have a handful of boys in line for Eagle who do just that.

 

Heck, I have soldiers who call me to apologize for not making a crew activity because they got called up for active. So the excuses are few.

[fred8033]

Beavah - "That's just da reality. There is no standard."

 

Ya just scare me Beavah. Ya just scare me. Saying there is no standard is justifying doing what ya want. Selectively interpreting "proficiency" to establish your own higher standard and thereby ignoring so many other BSA sources. It's not that there is no standard. It's that BSA has so little to actually keep leaders in check.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[Beavah]

Ah, fred8033, it's a bit early for Halloween, eh? Sorry to be scarin' yeh!

 

Honestly, though, there is no standard. Unless yeh standardize the test - not da requirements, but da actual test and the rubrics for grading - there is no standard.

 

For da First Class swim test, what does "in a strong manner" mean? What constitutes actually swimmin' da crawl stroke vs. flailing in a forward direction?

 

For demonstratin' water rescue methods, is it throw a line once and do a simple retrieval, or is it do many rescues under different circumstances so that yeh know when and how to reach, when and how to throw? Do yeh have to throw different sorts of things (ring buoys, poly line, etc.)? Do yeh actually have to get the line to the victim? Do yeh actually need a practice victim, or water for that matter? Can't yeh just pretend durin' a troop meeting on shore?

 

If yeh have to demonstrate how a compass works, does that mean just hold it flat so that the needle points? Or does that mean that yeh have to be able to use da compass? For what?

 

If yeh must demonstrate first aid for shock, that's a big thing, eh? Which form(s) of shock? All of 'em? Just a few? Raise the legs and you're done, even if it makes da person worse?

 

What is active?

 

What constitutes showin' scout spirit?

 

On and on...

 

If yeh look at da discussions on these forums, what yeh see mostly is people interpretin' the requirements differently based on their relative understandin' of da program, their subject expertise, and their level of commitment. Mostly, though, da biggest difference is their vision and goals for the boys.

 

That's all pretty normal. It's a feature, not a bug. So why not accept da feature for what it is?

 

B