seems like skirting the bare minimum

[qwazse]

Some folks seem to just want to keep the BS in the BSA!

 

LB, no offense, but you sound like an DE used to reporting paper membership to meet the pay-grade.

 

Just as I would never hesitate to confer an elevated rank because of an adult error in record-keeping, I would never encourage an SM to confer an inappropriate rank simply because folks managing the roster were not honest with themselves about purging it annually.

 

The requirement is "show scout spirit." Those of us who did band + youth groups year 'round, or who had a son who lettered in 5 varsity sports + girlfriend + advanced placement classes before making eagle, have a pretty clear vision of what that looks like.

 

Last night, I sat in on an eSMC for a boy who was steeped in other activities, but still took the time to SPL the troop. He didn't have to. There were several other POR's that he held while Life rank.

 

G&C's scout has effectively said "hurry up and give me this bird, never mind that there's no chance you'll see me on any of your stinking outings."

 

If he changes his mind, great. If not do the boy a favor, give him the district advancement chair's digits so the lad can start writing his appeal while the troop is off camping.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

[GKlose]

"If he changes his mind, great. If not do the boy a favor, give him the district advancement chair's digits so the lad can start writing his appeal while the troop is off camping."

 

:-)

 

This isn't my first smile of the day, but it's a good one.

 

Chris did also make the point "if only he'd spent some of that energy...", which over the last six months, meant an outing where everyone was trying to see what kind of crazy stuff we could cook, on camp stoves, in dutch ovens, over fires; or to a Scout orienteering event, to a bike trip on the Cape Cod bike path, on a couple of hikes on NH 4k-footers, to a weekend where our guys built a monkey bridge, but soon had more interest in rolling in the mud pit beneath it, followed by jumping in the lake right next to it, or one of the two summer camps we went to, one of which was in Canada.

 

He did come on one outing -- he didn't camp either night, but he did a day hike of Mt Tecumseh, one of the 4k-footers in NH. And he said that he wanted to come on the Troop-Pack overnight we had planned, but had been cancelled because of a severe weather forecast.

 

Guy

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm....

 

I'm not goin' to get into rlsmith's longwinded quotes, other than to recommend he start by readin' the Rules & Regulations, which describe the actual rules for da overall program, and then read the advancement guidance in that light.

 

What is "deserving of Eagle?". I think every troop should have its own sense for da goals of its program, set by da chartered org. and its leadership. An Eagle Scout should have clearly met the goals for the unit's program.

 

Practically speakin', the lad should be able to do (and actually do!) all of da things for which he is being recognized - be active in his troop and patrol, have proficiency in da skills of 21 merit badges, demonstrate scout spirit, be able to find a need in his community and lead a group of people to address it, step forward to positions of responsibility and then actively live up to the responsibility he has been accorded. Be recognized by others in his troop, church, school, employment, peer and other communities as bein' a fellow who genuinely lives up to da Oath and Law. On review by upstanding members of scoutin' and the community, convince them unanimously that he has met all of these expectations. That's what da BSA expects.

 

What's bein' described is a lad that none of us can honestly say is doin' his best here, eh?

 

What happened three years ago in the troop less than half of da boys remember. What cbowe and GKlose do now will set the tone for the troop for the next 3-5 years, eh? Their example and precedent will stand no matter how many times they tell other boys and families that "this is the last time".

 

I think it's positive hysterical sometimes how da kids have us adults wrapped around their little fingers. I mean, really? A kid who doesn't even live up to his bargain and multiple promises to come on three measly outings, and cbowe and GKlose and most of da rest of us here are wringin' our hands - "Oh my gosh, what are we going to do?" - as though the world revolves around this 17 year old and his feelings? Good heavens!

 

Yeh set da expectations, yeh live by 'em or you're a liar in everybody's eyes, eh? That's what the lad is askin' yeh by testing the expectations. He's askin' in front of everybody "Is the Scoutmaster a liar?" So answer his question by sayin' "No." It isn't that hard. Let him wring his hands about what he's goin' to do, instead of you wringin' yours. It will be a great gift to him to learn that da world doesn't revolve around his feelings.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle732]

"Eagle732 -- thanks -- this really hits home:

GET Eagle.

BE an Eagle.

EARN Eagle.

Thank you for helping me have a moment of clarity :-). "

 

Well I was gonna copy and paste half the advancement guide but somebody beat me to it

 

(Like we've never read it)

 

 

[qwazse]

Truth be told, I never read the AG. Most of what I know about comes from:

1. Going to roundtables and taking my DAC at his word.

2. The posts on this forum.

 

It's amazing how far you can limp along on the plain English of the BSHB and the Eagle application!

[Basementdweller]

very valid point Q

 

If your going to do the absolute bare minimum then your going to need to know exactly what it is...

 

You need to be able to parse the language to make sure it is exactly the minimum.

 

[Basementdweller]

My favorite discussion of this is revolves around...

 

If you were lost, hurt or in an emergency would you want this scout with you.....

 

I know of many scouts eagle or not I could say heck yes.

 

Sadly too many it would be no......Bordering on tragic.....Many Eagles would be no...Adult and youth.

 

[GKlose]

Followup -- I met with the Scout yesterday, and his father sat with us and observed. He didn't really say much until the end, and even then, he was asking his son a few questions.

 

Side note: I talked with Chris Sunday afternoon, and we are on the same page.

 

When I first sat down with the Scout, I explained a few things from my end. One was that I couldn't overrule Chris' signature, I could not sign for him, and the prior SM could not sign for him. I also told him that advancement is very much a program concept, and that Chris is in charge of program.

 

Overall, I sensed that the Scout needed to have his say, and I didn't interject commentary along the way. So he had his say. Afterward, I am left with the feeling that most of what he said is not meant for me to share. I will say, however, that if I were a board of at least three adults, it would have made an excellent Eagle board.

 

I witnessed about half of the conference, this last week, between Chris and the Scout. I think like any average 17-yr-old, the Scout heard what he wants to hear, not necessarily what was said. Sensing that, I asked him two questions -- the first was if he'd expected the outcome of the conference was going to be a signed application (he answered yes). The second was if he understood why Chris was choosing to not sign the application at this time, and he said yes, and explained the reason.

 

We talked briefly about the agreement -- end of January, when the Scout was coming back to the troop, Chris outlined the remaining requirements the Scout had for Eagle, and his expectations. The Scout's posture, at the moment, is that he agreed that he would try to attend 3 more outings, not that he actually would attend.

 

Towards the end, I outlined what I consider are the Scout's two choices -- honor the agreement, and then get the signature, or to proceed with the unsigned application as a disputed application. I told him what little I knew about the process (it is turned over to the advancement committee, it is out of the troop's hands, although I expect Chris and I might be solicited for input, that the process is confidential, and that we are not supposed to hear anything about the deliberation, and I said that I have no gut feeling of what the outcome will be. I told him my opinion, that choosing the first option would likely be the simpler way to go. I also told him that if he didn't get satisfaction from the council involvement, that there was a national appeal process that he could pursue.

 

This was one point where dad spoke up -- he asked if the Scout had any idea of which option he might pursue. The Scout was very clear -- he said he would be pursuing the disputed application process.

 

So that's where we sit -- I haven't been through this process before, so I have no idea what will be happening. I do know the District Advancement Chair, so I may drop him a note (without much elaboration) that this process is being started.

 

If you're interested, I will followup as the process unfolds.

 

Guy

[Eagle732]

I have not been through the Eagle appeal process myself but know a SM that did. It was widely discussed here a few years ago when mom posted on it. If it gets to the National level here's what I know from discussions with my SM friend:

 

You might be asked to write a letter outlining your position.

You won't be interviewed.

The scout and parent might be asked to write a letter outlining their position.

The scout won't be interviewed.

The National review board just reviews the facts submitted to it.

It can take 2 years for the process to play out (despite what many said).

Nation's decision is final.

When National finds in favor of the scout it can be hard for the adult leaders involved to maintain a positive attitude towards BSA.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

[GKlose]

Thanks -- I do remember that thread from a couple of years ago.

 

So that was a national appeal -- I know we'll have to go through something at the council or district level first.

 

Guy

[NJCubScouter]

If that is the choice the boy has made, I think everybody involved in the process (the SM and CC, assuming you are both declining to sign the application, as well as the Scout) should read section 8.0.3.2 of the Guide to Advancement, entitled "Initiating Eagle Scout Board of Review Under Disputed Circumstances." I am pretty certain that this is not exactly the same process that the Scout mentioned by Eagle732 went through, because when that "case" was at the council level, the current Guide to Advancement had not come out yet.

 

I won't go through the whole thing, but a major change is that (assuming I am reading that section correctly), the Scout most likely will receive a Board of Review. It must be requested by the Scout. Who the request is made to apparently depends on the procedures in your council, but it is definitely made to someone at the council or district, not the unit, since the SM and CC have already declined to sign the application.

 

The book says this about the BOR itself:

 

An Eagle Scout board of review under disputed

circumstances is held at the district or council level.

Volunteers from the candidates unit are not involved.

 

And then it says some stuff about the procedure for getting to the point of the BOR, then it says this:

 

Procedures for a board under disputed circumstances are

the same as for any Eagle Scout board. The members

should be well versed in related policies and organized

in advance so they can research background and facts.

Written statements or telephone interview summaries must

be obtained from the unit leader, knowledgeable

committee members, a representative of the service

project beneficiary (if applicable), and others familiar

with the case. Every effort should be made to have

balanced representation. Only review-board members

and administrators with a need to know may see the

evidence. The review is like any other for Eagle, but

with extra attention to the concerns at issue. Afterward,

all statements, summaries, or notes are sent to the

council and then destroyed once any appeal efforts

are concluded.

 

So, it is clear that the SM (and possibly committee members with knowledge of the situation) will be asked to make statements, either by interview or in writing before the BOR.

 

I have not heard of one of these taking place in my district. Maybe there have not been any. But that is what the book says.

 

I know that others in this forum might disagree with this, but if the Scout does make this request, regardless of whether he is awarded Eagle or not, I wouldn't take it personally. The SM has the right to do what he is doing, and the Scout has the right to do what he is doing, and ultimately the BOR (and possibly council and national if there is an appeal) will make the decision. It's not the end of life as we know it, or the end of the Eagle rank, or anything else. It's just one disputed situation that is going to be decided through the prescribed procedures.

[Twocubdad]

That the Scout would rather go through the appeal process than honor his word and go on a couple campouts -- you know, actually be a Scout for the next couple monthse -- tells me Chris made the right decision.

 

Unless the process has changed, the council advancement committee will serve as the finder of fact as well as making a determination. Here, the district advancement chairman serves as the primary "investigator" gathering the info from the various parties. The troop and Scout have the opportunity to submit a written statement and other documentation. The Scout and SM appear before the full council committee privately. The Scout's parents may accompany their son, but may not participate. Not sure how much of this is local procedure vs. national policy.

 

The one Eagle appeal we went through consumed something on the order of 80 to 100 hours of my time and that of our committee and other leaders. I would decline to participate in a future appeal. I would submit a one-page letter, something on the order of magnitutde of Chris's first post in this thread and ask the committee not to contact me again. In fact, since the Scout has determined he cannot accept the judgement of the troop, I would strongly consider asking our COR to have the Scout removed from the charter. If the council and/or national wants to take over administration of the program for this young man, let them do so completely.

 

Spend you time focusing on the Scouts who want to be in the program.

[Basementdweller]

How sad is that the BOY is going to dispute not getting the SM's signature.....

 

Wouldn't it just be easier to spend the 50 hours on the outings?????

 

There is going to be all sorts of negative energy involved.....

 

 

So how with this young man remember his scouting career???? what are the chances his son will ever be a scout?

 

 

Chris I am glad you are standing your ground. The BOY needs to fulfill his end of the agreement.

 

I hope his appeal is denied.

[NJCubScouter]

After what I just wrote, I should probably make clear that I still think what I thought in my first post in this thread: This Scout should take advantage of the (now-almost) five months that he has left, and honor his agreement by going on two more outings, preferably with "flying colors" (meaning he stays overnight rather than just "visiting"). That is what I wish he would do. However, if he decides he wants a Board of Review NOW, there is a procedure in place to do so. I think it is reasonable to expect the BOR to take into account that he decided to forego the opportunity to live up to his agreement, when he had time to do so.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

Well, that's different.

 

The lad is goin' to go with da appeal rather than come on two outings?

 

Almost makes me wonder if he's doin' it so that at he can stand up and say "this award is worthless, I was able to get it for doing nothing! Here, mom and dad. You wanted it, not me." Those do happen occasionally, more's the pity.

 

I wouldn't waste too much more time on it, eh? You and Chris say "no", as firmly and articulately as yeh can. Document thoroughly, send if off, then wash your hands of the matter. The lad hasn't really been in your troop for three years.

 

Beavah