IM_Kathy Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 In the spun thread it was mentioned that the SM can give a scout a particular MBC to avoid someone who is deemed to require too much or too little. But, it is my understanding that as a SM I can give a scout a MBC, but if the scout finds another MBC for that badge and is registered - what can a SM do? I'm more concerned with MBC that are skimping on the requirements. There are boys who are looking for the easy way out. Yes, as SM I have brought this up to the MBC and their claim is they are doing it correctly. My own son refuses to do badges with this person because as my son says he doesn't do any of the work the MBC tells the boys everything. (Yeah to my son!) but it's stuck here since MBC doesn't see anything wrong with what they are doing. Also just to mention that this MBC is also a UC so there is some different dynamics to it. I do know MBC's boy is an eagle and gone - he wants done now, and I know MBC will not continue after the boy is done so I'm hoping he gets done soon, but in the mean time - what can I do??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMHawkins Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Well, if you specifically sent a scout to MBC 1, and the scout comes back with a card signed by MBC 2, you can have a SM conference with the scout to ask why he did that. When you express your concern that you think he was looking for the easy way out because MBC 2 is known to skimp on requirments, evaluate the scouts reaction. If he is embarrassed about being "caught", ask him if he wants to re-do the MB with MBC 1. If he does, hand him a new card and let him learn. If he doesn't want to re-do it, or doesn't seem particularly bothered by having his plan discovered, that's something to keep in mind as you work with him through the rest of the program. Perhaps he needs to demonstrate a willingness to be challenged by the material before he is ready to work on his next MB. It's a problem when there's another authority figure telling him it's okay to essentially cheat, but that's going to be true MBC or no MBC, so be the authority figure that tells him it's not okay and that there are consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle732 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 The Scout and I always come to an agreement on who the MBC will be, then we fill out the card. I would hope that a scout would not come back with a card signed by someone else unless he had a real good reason. I believe it is the SM's responsibility to assign the MBC but I usually do it with input from the scout. We also have one MB that scouts can only take at the troop level, First Aid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 I guess I've never had that happen. We discuss the counselor he decides to use and I sign the card. I'm not sure why the scout would change. However, I'm also not sure I would know about it if he did change. Our MB Cards don't require a second signature by the SM. Once I approve his choice, it's out of my hands. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prof Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 I have wondered about this. In a recent discussion about blue cards, I noted the verbage (which may change) was I have discussed this merit badge with this Scout and recommended at least one merit badge counselor. Will the SM assign a counselor or recommend one? To me, there is a difference between assigning and recommending. Thoughts? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 I took the attitude to never assign the MBC because I wanted the Scout to be incharge, so we had discussions. If we felt a counselor wasn't the quality that we wanted for the scouts, we took them off the list. If the scout found a counselor he wanted tht wasn't on the list, we ask the person to come in and fill out an application and get some training. That gave us the time to kind of do an interview and learn more about the person. I never forced a scout to not use a counselor, and I never had one use one that I didn't think was good for the job. Barry(This message has been edited by eagledad) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 prof - You posted before I could. Recommend versus assign. Exactly. The requirement is that the scoutmaster recommend a MBC. From what I understand, this is part of the SM supporting the scout. In another words, if the scout wants to do a MBC, the SM supports the scout by helping identify a counselor. But if the scout already has one in mind, that's fine. He can use his own or the recommended. The key is that MBC are "approved" at the council level (or delegated to district level). MBCs are not unit approved. If a SM does not think a MBC is doing a good job, the SM should notify the council or district to get things change. The unit alone can't change the MBC list. ... This is consistent with the SM signature. The SM signing the blue card is to reflect a conversation happened with the scout. And that the scout is "qualified". But "qualified" pretty much means the scout is a registered Boy Scout in the troop. The scout is NOT a Webelos Scout. The boy is NOT a home schooler doing a home school assignment. As for MB requirements, leave those to the MBC. Perhaps the SM conversation might mention to the scout that a specific MB requires another MB or a rank or a specific skill as the 1st requirement. Fine, but that's no reason to not sign the card. Strictly speaking, the scoutmaster is not "approving" the scouting doing the MB. The scoutmaster is just documenting a conversation happened and the scout is a Boy Scout in their troop.(This message has been edited by fred8033) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raisinemright Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Fred, I don't understand your homeschooler comment. Do you mean that a homeschooled scout may not take a merit badge because it may also count toward his education? If so, prepare to lose an argument. (Sorry, my twisted sense of humor just came through) Seriously, what did you mean by that. To answer the original comment, I pust print off the names and numbers of all MBC's in the scouts community. Our troop is gepgraphically spread out, most of us are relatively new to the community and don't have years of knowing people and most importantly, the list, although current has a whole lot of people who have moved or no longer MBC's. My son recently called 7-8 MBC's on the list before hitting a live human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 The SM Handbook states: "The Scout obtains from his Scoutmaster a signed merit badge application and the name of a qualified counselor for that merit badge" and I believe the Boy Scout hanbook has similar verbiage. The Blue Card states I have discussed this merit badge with this Scout and recommended at least one merit badge counselor. Does anyone, anywhere, see the word "Assign" in either of those sentences. Unfortunately, too many Troop and Scoutmasters have decided that when a Scout obtains the name of a qualified counselor, that it means the Scoutmaster "assigns" the merit badge counselor. That's not what you are doing, you are just providing a suggestion from a list of people you know are already qualified. Ultimately, it's up the the Scout, and even more up to the Scout's parents, if he is going to work with that Merit Badge Counselor. As long as the Merit badge Counselor is registered, there is nothing you can do other than to award the merit badge and ask the Scout why they didn't end up using the counselor you recommended ("assigned"). You might learn there is a real good reason for the Scout not using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venividi Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Calico, I don't see anything in the text that implies the SM is providing a "suggestion" when they are providing a name of a counselor, nor that it's "even more up to the Scout's parents" to select the counselor. It gives the appearance that that you are reading your own thoughts into the text that you quote, in the same manner that you are saying that others are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 >>Fine, but that's no reason to not sign the card. Strictly speaking, the scoutmaster is not "approving" the scouting doing the MB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 raisinemright - Homeschoolers - We have many local homeschoolers. I know many that use the MB book as part of their homeschooling. The key is when they are NOT scouts. If they are NOT scouts, they should not have a signed bluecard. We've had it where homeschool buddies want to go to merit badge fairs. Sometimes it's okay. Sometimes it's not. But you can't earn a MB because your not a scout. Also some MB fairs or counselors also only want to counsel scouts. ... Eagledad - I'm pretty sure that is national's intention. The SM signature is to provide the opportunity to chat with the scout about advancement. Nothing more or less. The SM providing a name of a counselor is so that scouts are not left stranded wanting to do a badge but not having a resource. The recommended MBC is provided to support the scout, not to dictate who the MBC is. Watch this video: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/GuideToAdvancement/Advancement_News.aspx ... I think key is to remember that the MB program is a council administered program. Using the MB program is an individual scout driven activity. The MB program is NOT at the heart of the troop program. Sometimes the troop might coordinate with it as the MB program can supplement and enhances the troop program. But MB program is not a central part of the troop program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rismith Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Oy, I'm sensing world's oldest senior patrol leader in here. If a scoutmaster is dictating how something is done, there's a problem. If a scoutmaster is adding requirements, there's a problem. There is one time where there should be no question about when a scoutmaster is in charge - matters of immediate safety. If there is no time to talk, that's the moment to act. Getting in a twist because a scout did not follow your pre-approved track to Eagle is far from the path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoPenn Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Venividi, I will admit right up front that I took the wording from the Scoutmaster's handbook (which doesn't use the words assign, suggest or recommend) and combined it with the wording on the blue card (which specifically uses the word recommended), added two and two together and came up with four. Taken together, it's pretty clear what is to happen - the Scoutmaster, in handing the Scout the name of an MBC, is not assigning the MBC to the Scout - they are recommending (a synonym for suggesting) an MBC. The only place you'll ever find statements that MBC's are assigned (other than in forum discussons, of course) are on Troop websites - and they aren't official. Thinking about that, I have to wonder if UCs ever visit the web pages of the Troop they serve to see if there are some things they can gently correct - like this "assign" an MBC statement. As for the parent - I really don't think we need something in writing, in an official BSA policy statement, to understand that in the real world, the parents are the ultimate decision makers when it comes their sons and if a parent rejects a merit badge counselor for their son, that decision trumps any decisions by a Scoutmaster to "assign" a merit badge counselor. If you ask why, hopefully the parent will give you an answer - maybe they know something about the person that you don't but should - but if s/he looks at you and says "none of your business" - it really doesn't matter, does it? Maybe there's is just bad blood between them and they just want to leave it at that. The decision triggers one response - recommending another MBC. For that matter, maybe the parent knows that Mr. D from work is a registered MBC for that badge and the parents want their Scout to work with him - still a done deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callooh! Callay!1428010939 Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 The CalicoPenn answers above are soundly reasoned, excellent answers to the question. Since there's nothing to add without digressing, maybe it's time to spin a tangential thread: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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