12 year old Eagle (2 days short of 13)

[Twocubdad]

Basically, if you really earned your Arrow of Light, it wouldn't be that difficult to breeze through Tenderfoot through First Class in a good long day .... At that point, it's just merit badges and POR's...."

 

Bart -- please don't take this personally, 'cause I know you're just breezing through theoretical possibilities, but that absolutely has to be the worst possible Scouting program I can ever imagine. If anyone wants to understand what Beavah, I and others are arguing against, this is precisely it.

 

Breeze through Tenderfoot through First Class in a day? Really? REALLY?

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939]

"Oh, my," one Scouter shakes his head, "I hope he wasn't pushed to it by his parents. Eagle is not for boys who were pushed to do it. Only for self starters who did it all on their own intiative."

 

"Hah!" scoffs another Scouter "His parents earned it and pinned it on him. He ain't no real Eagle scout. Eagle is not for boys who had resources and opportunities dropped in their laps. It's only for those who must struggle against the current the whole way."

 

"OK, so he's been awarded Eagle" another chimes in, "but really, come on... what are the odds that you could completely trust this kid with your life in the backwoods if things hit the fan...because we all know that requirement 7.a. for Eagle Scout reads - Scout has proven to one and all that anyone can completely trust him with their life in the backwoods if things hit the fan."

 

Malarky and idolatry. Eagle Scouts are not supreme exemplars of virtue and they are not ultimate outdoorsmen. Eagle Scouts are not even necessarily exemplars of the Law or Oath any more than might be, say a Second Class Scout that has taken them to heart. Eagle Scouts are physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight boys and young men who, having certain requirements and challenges set before them, got cracking and met the requirements and challenges. (And the elaborate ECOH? Humbug.)

 

Some will do it early, some late, some never. Some will do it in spite of having few resources and little parental encouragement. Others will have parents cheering (perhaps even nagging at times) and ensuring they have more than the resources required in their endeavors. Not fair? OK. Whatever. You gonna add to the requirements so things conform to your idea of "fair?" Throw an extra ten pounds in Jonny's backpack because his parents bought him a nice lightweight one and you don't want the trail to Eagle to be any easier for him than it is for the boys whose parents did him the favor of not buying him anything?

 

People with plenty of resources available to them climb Mount Everest more often than do people with very few resources available. That doesn't make them moral exemplars or better persons... but it does make them people who've climbed Mount Everest. Eagle Scout is not Mount Everest. An able 13 year old can do it. A 13 year old from a family that has and budgets resources to support his activities is more likely to do it.

 

A 13 year old whose family regularly camps, hikes, canoes, swims, sails, and the like and has been including him in these activities since he was in diapers might not be terribly far off from the vaunted Eagle level (which is really just the First Class plus Camping MB level) of outdoor proficiency the day he joins the troop at age 10 with the AOL that he had a lot of fun earning the year prior.

 

Eagle must be the consummate outdoorsman? No. First Class plus Camping MB, for all intents and purposes, is the Eagle level of outdoor proficiency. And that argues not for Eagle idolatry... but rather for taking First Class requirements seriously. After First Class, further rank requirements focus on service, leadership, academic and classroom stuff, and planning and managing things.

 

Look at the Eagle required MBs:

Clearly Outdoormanship oriented Eagle MBs:

Camping

 

Arguably includes Outdoorsmanship Eagle MBs:

Swimming or Cycling or Hiking

Emergency Preparedness or Lifesaving

 

Not Outdoorsmanship oriented Eagle:

Citizenship in the Community

Citizenship in the Nation

Citizenship in the World

First Aid

Personal Fitness

Personal Management

Family Life

Environmental Science

Communications

 

We could argue over Env Sci, and maybe First Aid... but the basic point stands. Most of the Eagle required MBs, while they may have some Outdoor applications, are not centered around Camping, Hiking, or Outdoorsmanship in general.

 

If you have no reservations about a Scout having earned First Class at age 13, then having reservations about him earning Eagle at the same age on the grounds that he can't have earned his outdoor Scout cred is illogical.

[BartHumphries]

Let me preface this by saying that I was presuming that the Scout was really paying attention when he was doing the things required for his Arrow of Light, that he didn't just follow "Do Your Best", he actually did it and learned. So when the first aid requirements are looked at, it's not something new to the Scout. He knows how to perform hands-only CPR, he knows what to do if blood is spurting out of a person's arm because a ninja jumped out of the bushes and sliced a person up with a sword, and he knows how tight to make those bandages that he's wrapping around the arm over the pads. He knows how to tie a square knot and can probably do so with his eyes shut. He has no problems with two half hitches and a taut-line hitch (and consequently has no problem with a clove hitch, as it's just two half hitches tied around a pole instead of the rope). He knows the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. He knows all of these things and more before he ever even becomes a Scout. For this hypothetical Scout, a day-long T-1st lesson isn't so much about skills instruction as it is about doing a preliminary Scoutmaster Conference before the actual Scoutmaster Conference. By really learning these things when he earned his Arrow of Light, the new Scout isn't being taught so much as he's demonstrating that he already knows these things.

 

Now, think about it, how long does the average Scout actually spent on T-1st? In the average program that I'm familiar with, T-1st is a year-long program. Scouts meet once a week for a little over an hour, with perhaps 15 minutes of each meeting devoted to skills instruction.

Preopening game: 20 minutes

The meeting starts now

Opening: 5 minutes

Skills Instruction: 15 minutes

Patrol Meetings: 20 minutes

Interpatrol Activity: 25 minutes

Closing: 5 minutes

More or less standard, right? Some troops are more or less, of course. Let's say that the Scout misses a few weeks during the year for holidays, courts of honor, and summer camp. 45 weeks at 15 minutes a day is 11.25 hours. That's a really long day, especially when the only really "new" things, the things that he's actually being instructed in, are probably all the 1st-Class cooking requirements.

 

But it doesn't stop after a day. 1st Class requires 10 separate activities, in addition to regular troop meetings, three of which require camping overnight. I would presume that a boy in this position wouldn't be passively going on activities but would be tapped to be in charge of at least some of these activities (depending on his POR). He's going to be getting much more time to practice his skills and when the rest of the troop goes through their skills instruction he's likely going to be tapped to teach and we all agree that a person gets more out of preparing to teach than they do by learning.

[Brewmeister]

This a funny forum...we spend a lot of electronic ink pining for the good ol' days of scouting--you know, back when the average age of an Eagle was 14, rather than the 17+ it is today...

[Venividi]

yep - lots of bits generated about ideas for creating and implementing a program that develops character, citizenship and fitness for boys from age 11 to age 18, each year building on what was developed the year before, and still there are people that misinterpret this to mean that those that have differing opinions are basing their opinions solely on physical age.

[Basementdweller]

well Horizon that is all well and good your son was elected patrol leader when his group crossed over.....Who replaced him at 3, 6 or 9 months.....Or your telling me he remained patrol leader till he earned his start 16 months out?????

 

so what about his patrol mates who need to experience the job???? We hold elections every 6 months.....

[BartHumphries]

I do believe the OP already answered those questions.

[Brewmeister]

"Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"

 

--George Carlin

[Horizon]

Basement - elections every 6 months (which I think is the norm for most Troops). He was elected, then re-elected - served as Patrol Leader for one year. Plenty of positions after that.

 

His Patrol Mates, once they earned First Class, started moving into positions as well - though not all of them were leadership types. They went hunting positions of responsibility, but not always those requiring leadership as well.

[rismith]

Honestly, if a scout wants to keep running for patrol leader and he keeps being elected, who cares? If the patrol wants that and the scout doesn't have ambition for a higher position or just likes working at that level, why is that a problem?

[Basementdweller]

rismith......

 

There is no rule against it, but is it right????? I encouraged my son to not run as PL again so someone else could have a chance to try it.

 

My son and none of the boys in my troop will advance at the expense of another scout. Just how I roll..

[rismith]

It's a question of philosophy to me. The point of the Patrol Leader is that he is supposed to be a leader. I don't personally like the pre-determined election dates because I believe if a scout isn't cutting it, the patrol should be able to hold a new election to find a more suitable leader. If one person is especially adept at it, they can hold it for quite a bit of time. If they aren't, or just get bored, they can step down whenever they or their patrol wants.

 

If the question is about letting others get a chance to lead, that's fine, but it should be a decision left to boys. I would personally rather have a patrol leader stay in the position and hone his skills for a little longer than lose one just as he is really hitting his groove. There will be times where people overstay, but I don't believe it is necessarily after only 6 months.

[Basementdweller]

Maybe my troop is different but being PL is a lot of work.

 

Training the new guys, Attending the PLC, Duty rosters, Program planning......

 

 

Rotating the leadership gives the guys a break too, ya remember that going on an outing and just having fun.

 

 

Of course in an adult lead troop it is probably a pretty easy job.

[rismith]

Which is why they can choose to not run again, if they choose. I'm not demanding anyone run for a position or not. I just think it's a decision boys can make for themselves whether they want to do the job or not. I don't see where you get the "adult led troop" from that at all.