12 year old Eagle (2 days short of 13)

[Twocubdad]

So what's the point of this thread? To offer our anonymous congratulations to a Scout we don't know, who probably isn't reading this and wouldn't necessarily know the thread is about him if he were?

 

But if this is part of our on-going discussion regarding advancement, then Beav's comments are perfectly acceptable and, frankly, spot on. (Personally, I assumed this was just a love fest for 12-y.o. Eagles and have stay out of it until now.)

 

Sure, this kid is probably very intelligent and articulate. But he has gotten no more from the program than any other 12y.o. regardless of rank. The real benefits of Scouting are to be experienced, not checked off. Experience takes time. Is he an Eagle Scout? Sure. But no one can know what he has gained from being an Eagle for a few more years.

[charmoc]

OK Beav, let me get this straight. A scout who earns Eagle at the age of 13-14 has not benefited fully form the journey but its OK for a scout to get to Life, have most of the Eagle requirements done, get more heavily involved with other outside activities and at 17 years 11 months comes back and finished the requirements for Eagle has benefited more? Or how about the same 13-14 year old who has finished most all Eagle requirements and just stops, hangs around the troop meeting being more of a distraction, or just not showing up due to whatever, and then at 17.11 years crams the last of his requirement had benefited more?

 

I really doubt it.

 

The scout who has challenged himself to get to Eagle by 13-14 years old will benefit most. He has learned the lessons, done the requirements, developed a sense of duty to the Oath and Law will benefit the most whether they stay in scouting or not.

 

[Beavah]

A scout who earns Eagle at the age of 13-14 has not benefited fully form the journey but its OK for a scout to get to Life, have most of the Eagle requirements done, get more heavily involved with other outside activities and at 17 years 11 months comes back and finished the requirements for Eagle has benefited more?

 

Yah, charmoc, I don't remember sayin' that. Have I been mutterin' in my sleep again?

 

I'm not a fellow who buys into da "heavily involved in outside activities" bit, eh? I think if yeh aren't participatin' in Scouting, yeh aren't an active member. If I'm on da swim team, and I get "heavily involved in outside activities" like Scouting, then I reckon I'm not goin' to be on da swim team very long.

 

Scoutin' is a wonderful program that can work well from age 11 all the way to age 18. Da challenge can grow from just tryin' to stay warm in a rainstorm to a level of planning and leadership that no other school activity can come close to. Yeh can take da best, brightest, most athletic lad and keep him completely challenged and engaged for seven years in a troop, growin' the whole time.

 

If yeh aren't doin' that but yeh want to, then I think yeh have to look at your program and make some changes. I'd gently and humbly suggest that perhaps, just maybe, one of those changes is lookin' at advancement differently in da context of all da other methods, eh? Yeh aren't goin' to hold your best and brightest until age 18 to pursue an award that a loquacious lad can earn at age 12.

 

Beavah

 

[charmoc]

So Beav and Twocubdad,

So whats the advice here? Put road blocks in front of each and every scout to slow them down because of your preceded perception that they are not getting enough out of scouting? Whats the magic age? What do they have to do to get the most out of the scouting experience?

What special in site do you have into each and every boys mind that supports your arguments? I Eagled at 15 and have no regrets, did a lot and got a lot out of scouting.

So Beav, you imply a lot in your writing, or are we to take what you write fundamentally but interpret what BSA outlines in the advancement guidance? 

Eagle at 13? ROCK ON!

 

[Mad Max]

After having officiated over 300 EBOR's I tend to agree with Beavah, but I won't sugar-coat it. 13 is too young and 12 is ridiculous for two primary reasons. 1) The boys are usually too young and immature to truly grasp what they've accomplished, and 2) have not been involved long enough to have the Promise of Scouting delivered. An articulate boy shows me one thing, he's got really good parents who are raising a smart and well-mannered son. Congratulations to them. By far, in my experience, the best and most meaningful EBOR's are conducted for the 17-18 year old scouts.

 

Wish I'd been keeping score over the past decade, but if I had I know I could report without question: The best EBOR's were never (yes, I said never) conducted for a 13-year old. And even though I've conducted several poor EBOR's for all ages 13-18, the worst I ever had were 13-14. On the whole, the best have been the 17-18 year olds. Had I kept score over the years I would be able to report this as a statistical fact by now. But, you'll just have to take my word for it, because I'm the one who had to suffer through the less-than-stellar EBOR's.

 

It's the law of the farm. You cannot plant the seed today, water the heck out of it for days, and then expect it to bear fruit in a month. Likewise, the Promise of Scouting cannot be delivered, consumed, digested and then lived in such a short amount of time as for a 13-year old.

 

Perhaps this thread needs to switch to a different topic: Type-A, Driver-Driver, Parents and other fast-track adult leaders. No shortage of fodder there.

 

Much to be learned from wise old Beavah, young Grasshoppah Charmoc.

[charmoc]

Ahh, so Mad Max has sat in on over 300 Eagle Board of Reviews which only has given him no more than a perception of what the scouts experience has been. Nothing said about actually experiencing it himself, so no facts, just hearsay, as well as knowing nothing about my background except I Eagles at 15 year old. Opinion is no replacement for facts.

 

Max you are right, I do need to take a lesson from the Beav, Twocubsdad and yourseslf ; and in the old saying Argue with fools only drags you down to their level and beats you with experience

 

Thank for reminding me of who I have been arguing with.

 

EAGLE AT 13? ROCK ON!!!!

 

[Beavah]

I Eagles at 15 year old. Opinion is no replacement for facts.

 

Nor is anecdote da singular of data.

 

I don't think it needs to be an argument, charmoc. Just different thoughtful perspectives, which in turn depend on what we each care about for kids.

 

Every now and again I'm able to talk a few folks from a rapid-advancement troop into goin' and spendin' some time with one of the other sort. They usually come back saying "hey, we have to think about our program differently." But not always.

 

Beavah

 

[pohsuwed]

Thanks charmoc!

 

I may be wrong, but these boards have at least few conversations about the program being "boy led". It is interesting to find that Beaverrr and Mad Max take the different approach of controlling progression and constraining advancement, putting the control of the program into the pages of some unwritten book. Wouldn't "boy led" include the fact that if some boys run with the program faster than others and that we should let them run? Clearly each boy is unique and responds to motivation differently. The scout leaders should always emphasize the eight methods to create the environment where boys can build themselves, but why would anyone suggest that they shouldn't advance at whatever speed they choose?

 

And where the heck is the "maturity" requirement? I have looked for it before, and I still can't find it anywhere. Frankly I get so tired of leaders thinking that they know the program so well that they have the perfect application for it--when it means treating them all alike and running them through a constrained course of advancement like they were robots.

 

Does Mad Max prescribe to this so when the next boy he has never met before comes in for the 301st Eagle board of review he has a good feeling about the maturity of that boy solely based on that conversation? That would be quite a mistake as eloquence is also not a requirement for any rank advancement either. It is inappropriate to add requirements to an Eagle Scout. And we are all aware that there is no such thing as a maturity requirement in scouting. My personal opinion is that more respect for the program can be found in younger scouts than older ones anyway.

 

And Beaver still alludes to the idea that (without any personal knowledge) this scout listed in this post has only participated in one of the methods of scouting. I think a positive person would only assume that any Eagle scout has benefited from all of the methods of scouting, until maybe proven otherwise.

 

And I'm sorry, but what is the "Promise of Scouting" Mad Max refers to? I have searched for this as well, and have found nothing about the bestowal or delivery of something like this. Is this another made up requirement?

 

My point here is that why not simply congratulate the scout and have hopes that he, just like every other boy in scouting, gets out of it what he can to prepare him for the rest of his life. The idea of tearing them down based on silly assumptions is rediculous. And Beaverrrr, while you may have congratulated him at first, taking a slap at assumed deficiencies in his development so far negates the congratulations.

 

And one note about speedy advancement is that Eagle is certainly not the "end" in scouting. So if anyone is thinking that these scouts then have nothing to do therefore they will drop out, you may want to look again. Some scouts will simply reach for Eagle, and it may take them years to do it. But for others, Eagle may just be a few steps into the journey.(This message has been edited by pohsuwed)

[Twocubdad]

So Beav and Twocubdad,

So whats the advice here? Put road blocks in front of each and every scout to slow them down because of your preceded perception that they are not getting enough out of scouting?

 

Hope you were wearing all the appropriate safety harness for that leap of logic. Richard B lurks here occasionally and may want to include that in the next round of safety regs.

 

Most everyone who thinks a 12yo Eagle is just hunky-dorrie also wants to believe that those of who don't are a bunch of ham-fisted crumudgeons who enjoy torturing small animals, pulling the wings off flies and setting up roadblocks for Scouts who only want to advance to Eagle "at their own pace." Of course, Charmoc now adds that we are fools to go along with "Ask Andy's" Aug 1 blog calling us stupid and heartless, in so many words.

 

The problem is the lack of vision and understanding of the depth and nuiance of the program. I'm not setting up roadblocks -- no minimum age or added time-in rank requirements -- just getting to know my Scouts and helping them -- and their parents! -- understand that the program is for the long haul, that the goal is for them to get the most out of their time in Scouting, not to get out as quickly as possible. We dont' put up road blocks, but we do show them the side roads, the scenic routes and the nice camping spots along the way. My job is to get the Scouts fully engaged in the program, not just working on advancement at a break-neck pace. And no, you're not going to convince me a 12yo is doing much more than advancement.

 

I know there are exceptions, and maybe Skeptic's 12yo is one, but by and large, kids who blow through the ranks at a very young age are going to flame out. A kid who is so advancement driven to make Eagle by 12 is going to be that much more lost when that challenge and trail ends. As Beav alluded, advancement is one of the tool we use to keep Scouts engaged in the program. Completing Eagle at 12 or 13 removes that incentive for the Scout. Yeah, yeah, Hornaday, Venturing, Outdoor Awards, yadda, yadda, yadda, they ain't the same as Eagle. If those other awards are so great, do them BEFORE Eagle or at least concurrently.

 

And finishing most of Eagle by 12, taking four years off and coming back to finish Eagle at 17 isn't much better. In the end, their Scouting careers are still only three years. No different that a kid who quits at 13.

 

And if "your own pace" is so important, why not let the bored 9 year old start working on requirements. Or the 19 year old who just never got around to it? NINE YEAR OLD EAGLES -- ROCK ON!!! (I'm biting my tounge now -- we have to be careful what we joke about here. We don't need to give the "Advancement Team" any more stupid ideas than they already have.)

 

We do boys a great disservice by allowing them to finish Eagle in two or three years -- whether its their first three years in the program or with a big donut hole in the middle. We are not giving them the best opportunity to fully experience Scouting.

 

Oh, and Max, I love your farm analogy -- I'm absolutely stealing it. That will be a Scoutmaster's Minute next week.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[tgrimstead]

*Fantasy World*

Bob walks in to his interview for district manager of Copy Paper Inc.

 

Boss begins: " Welcome Bob, Upon review you have exceeded the requirements of all applicants for this position, many much older than you. You're a go getter who your peers hold in high esteem because of your determination and self motivation. You started with us a few years ago and have consistently stood out and taken on responsibility, moving your way up the chain until you now sit here today for consideration for this manager position. With out a doubt we expect good thing from you as a leader"

 

Bob exclaims: " Thank you sir I won't let you down!"

 

Boss replies: " Oooohhh no, your too young, we're giving it to John. He's been around longer and has kinda been coasting but now FINALLY meets the requirements for this position. We just think he has a better feel for what copy paper is because of his extra years in. But if you wait around a few more years, maybe visit the paper plant, bath in some pulp, and really show you believe in our product, In a few years you will be ready."

 

Bob retorts: " I've busted my but to do all that Human Resources said was REQUIRED of me for this position. I worked hard to challenge myself and show my peers great things can be accomplished through perseverance and determination regardless of age or time in. This is age discrimination! I quit!"

 

Boss: " Geeesh..another one quit. I don't know why we can't keep this young guys around."

 

( Fact: all set requirements meet.Personal opinion: out ways facts. = discrimination)

 

 

[Twocubdad]

tgrimstead -- you should really include the color of the sky in your fantasy world. Since they have no relationship to reality, it would be an interesting detail.

 

Again, you guys just make up imaginary stuff which you attribute to the equally imaginary boogeyman Scoutmasters. It fits your narrative and is easy to refute.

 

Your guys don't work for political action committees, do you?

 

 

 

Oh yeah, the Promise of Scouting is Adventure, Learning, Challenge and Responsibility.

[skeptic]

Let's clarify. The young man was not in my troop, I simply sat on his board. He from one of the largest troops in the county who does have many Eagles, most over 16, and quite a few under the wire. This young man came in with the younger age allowed, prior to 11. He has been on over 50 nights of camping, about a quarter backpacks over 5 miles. He has never missed a meeting, and barely any other activities. One of his stated goals was to help others coming up, including his 9 year old brother who is still in cubs. The parents are not helicopter; he made the goal and accomplished it. He also has earned two of the four Catholic religious awards and is active in the church.

 

Still, we will see. There are exceptions to everything, and this one "seems" to be one. But, please, enough nonsense. He met the requirements, and is working on improving his leadership by attending leadership shops in school, as well as scouts.

 

 

 

 

[tgrimstead]

twocub.

 

Lets make the sky slate grey and put a happy little tree over there.

 

I love that guy.

[tgrimstead]

To new Eagle. Good job kid! Way to be exceptional.

[Twocubdad]

Very good.

 

What was that guy's name? Bob Rose? Ross? His show did the job of a half bottle of Sominex.