Something better than the Blue card

[Hal_Crawford]

I'll take NJ's suggestion one step further. Assemble a committee of 12 experienced scouters, folks that really know how scouting works or should work. Put them in a room with the mission to come up with the best way to track and record merit badges. We will continue to use Blue Cards or other existing methods until they reach consensus--I expect that will occur shortly after the eleventh scouter's funeral.

[Twocubdad]

Another solution in search of a problem. (Have we really solved everthing else or just given up?)

 

As I sit here in the midst of a really nasty thunderstorm, I am greatly concerned to be agreeing with bnelon and disagreeing with my esteemed flat-tailed friend.

 

I'm cool with blue cards. They've worked just fine for DECADES. I see no substantial difference between the current ones and those in my scrapbook from 1970. It's really just one form that everyone gets a little piece of. MBC signs and keeps his third. Scout gives to SM or Adv. Chm. and gets his third. Adv. Chm. gets his third stamped by the council and files it with the troop records.

 

If there is ever a question, we treat the boys' handbooks and his stack of blue cards as the gold standard. And there is still redundant backup in the event he looses a card or 12. I am down with Beav's thoughts on the real usefulness of tracking Scout advancement on Scoutnet. Yeah, if I move to Beaverland, Beav has access to my records. Is that really an advantage? With the Scouts we've had transfer-in, I've never accessed Scoutnet for his records. His BSHB and blue cards work just fine. And if they were lost in the move I'd probably give the old SM a jingle and work things out.

 

And I do like the element or responsibility this places on the Scout for tracking important documents over a long time frame. Come the revolution (or that next bolt of lightening) and the grid collapses, you guys will wish you had all those hard copies. We enourage our guys to set up a notebook for all their important Scout stuff and keep their blue cards and rank cards in baseball card sleeves. Seems like someone pinned a stack of empty sleeves on the bulletin board in the Scout House - just take what you need.

 

Yeah, sooner or later national IT may start stumblin' across a cowpie or two, so going all eletronic is probably inevitable. But making things easier isn't a method of scouting. Most all these kids have homes with real beds, central0 heat and microwave ovens. Yet we still have them sleeping in tents and cooking over open fires. There are lessons to be learned in doing things the hard way from time to time.

[Eagle732]

I really didn't mind signing 150 blue cards TWICE! (sign up and completion) last month at summer camp. I'm proud the boys took it upon themselves to earn as many merit badges as they did.

 

 

[AKdenldr]

Beware of inentended consequences!

 

I like the blue cards.

 

The blue card puts the responsibility for his program in the scouts hands. If he looses cards, has to find them, has to replace them, has to make phone calls to adults ... well isn't that a great learning opportunity?

 

A little adult effeciency in making a change to something automated will lose youth effectiveness.

 

If camp counselors and mba counselors have difficulty managing a paperwork load, perhaps there are other low tech solutions that will assist? (Labels, paperwork night at camp, etc)

 

In addition, I'm skeptical an BSA IT solution can be implimented well.

[Beavah]

In addition, I'm skeptical an BSA IT solution can be implimented well.

 

Well, there is that

 

I'm findin' it a bit remarkable how much adults in da program cling to the paperwork. I doubt you'd find a single youth member who supports it. I've certainly never had an Eagle candidate at his Eagle BOR come forward and say "I really learned about responsibility from having to keep track of 150 blue card segments and 500 lines of signatures and initials." Boys learn real responsibility in da program through campin' and cookin' and hikin' and planning and leading and workin' together, not by keepin' track of paperwork. Real responsibility, eh? Not bureaucratic busywork.

 

The point of Advancement Method is to provide recognition for real learnin' and effort, not for paperwork tracking. Advancement Method works just fine without a single signature bein' accumulated anywhere.

 

The Gold Standard for documentation is not a scrawled, rain-soaked, illegible signature on a chewed up piece of blue cardstock or da tattered pages fallin' out of a poorly-bound handbook. The Gold Standard is what the scout is able to do. If he's able to do what his uniform says he is able to do, then I reckon he has learned real character and responsibility.

 

Everything else is just silly adult malarkey gettin' in da way of da kids' program.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Twocubdad]

Oh, come on, buddy.

 

Nice theory. I suppose if Lem and Whitey had really good memories, the could keep track of the Troop 1 Scouts who advanced without resorting to writing anything down. But with 61 on the roster, I have a hard enough time remembering names and patrols, much less advancement. Or maybe you are suggesting advancement be a more organic process where the senior scouts and adults just sit back and watch the Scouts at work and intrinsically understand when someone meets the standards. I can imagine the SM and SPL appearing out of the darkness and into of the glow of the campfire with a knowing, satisfied countenance and Billy Scout's First Class badge...

 

While I agree with you that minus the badge, that's how the important stuff works -- character, leadership, citizenship, etc. Guys just get it (or not) and it is very rewarding in its own right when the do -- for both the Scouts an us.

 

But that's NOT the Advancement Method. Of course you are correct that what we're after is what the boy is able to do. But why then worry about what's on his uniform at all? Get rid of the silly scraps of paper AND the silly scraps of ribbon and embroidery. Just more adult malarkey, huh?

 

Obviously the Advancement Method includes specific, written requirements. As you so often advance, Scouts learn, are tested, reviewed and rewarded.. And it does require some administration. Part of my argument in favor of the blue cards is that they are reasonably simple process through which we simply ask the boys to document their own progress and completion. Not unlike keeping up with a time card, logging client hours or tracking expenses and filing reports. While best practices suggest keeping those records for the long-term (and we recommend our Scouts do that) that is in the category of best practices, not a mandatory requirement. I think councils/districts which REQUIRE blue cards attached to Eagle apps are overstepping their authority and the purpose keeping the records.

 

I'm working with two Scouts now who are learning the lesson of keeping up with their paperwork. One is going up for 1C and has lost his handbook with absolutely no documentation of the requirements he's completed (exept for the SM conference which we held last week despite the missing book). The other is finalizing his Eagle application and discovered he apparently never turned the completed blue card for Cit/Comm. But we're all helping them through it and they will eventually get the issues solved. It will cost them some time and a little effort, but in the process they're going to learn some important lessons about responsibility, attention to detail and follow-through. Seems like a good use of time to me.

 

No, I've never had a Scout tell me he enjoyed keeping up with advancement records either. But then I've never had a Scout tell me they enjoy the three pot method either. Or how to run a police line to pick up bits and pieces of trash. No one has ever said they really like breaking camp, loading gear, cleaning and storing it when they return to the Scout House. But those are some pretty important life lessons in there, too. Being responsible, managing the details, keeping up with stuff, taking the good with the bad are all the little lessons Scouts need pick up along the trail.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmmm....

 

Easy, there, TwoCubDad.

 

I'm not sure yeh really want to elevate paperwork to the same level as recognizin' kids for their achievements at a Court of Honor, or with badges on their uniform. It's possible and quite rational to dispense with one but keep da other. Paperwork is just paperwork. Recognition for workin' hard and accomplishin' things helps reinforce those behaviors we want boys to develop. Most businesses have long since dispensed with old paper time-punch cards. I don't reckon they've dispensed with pay.

 

In da Advancement Method I know, the Scout Learns, the Scout is Tested, the Scout is Reviewed, the Scout is Recognized. I don't remember "The Scout scurries about keepin' track of pieces of paper in 3-ring-binders". It's not really a part of Advancement, or at least it needn't be. What's more, it has all kinds of other problems, like bein' harder on ADHD boys.

 

Now, I'm not suggestin' it's wrong to write things down. I'm just suggestin' that all that needs to be written is the minimum necessary to keep track, and that keepin' track is probably best done in whatever way those keepin' track prefer. That's probably not usin' someone else's form.

 

If all da long blue-card shenanigans yeh write about are really necessary in your unit, that's fine. I'm just suggestin' that perhaps for most other units it doesn't have to be so. There might be better things for kids and adults to do with their time. I've been part of units bigger than 61 youth without needin' any of that. A call or email to the Advancement Chair works just fine. Da old troop rank progression posters in the meetin' hall work as well, too. There are lots of other ways to handle things that are easier and perhaps teach better lessons is all I'm sayin'. Which is perhaps why none of this paperwork stuff has ever been required by the BSA.

 

I think you're mostly foolin' yourself into thinkin' that the two boys you mention are learnin' real responsibility and life lessons. Maybe they are, maybe they're not, but I think most often it's an excuse we tell ourselves when we recognize that if we were the boys, we'd be callin' da whole experience a royal P-I-T-A.

 

A patrol is only 6-8 boys, and da Patrol Leader or Troop Guide signed off for most of First Class, right? And like a good Patrol Leader he's keepin' track and encouragin' his members to advance, right? In fact he probably did da last signoff before sendin' the lad off for his SM conference. So it sure seems to me that lad with the missing pages can just bring his PL over to say "Yep, he's ready for his BOR". Seems like a youth leader who knows and encourages his men is learnin' more responsibility than a kid tryin' to keep track of cards.

 

Just thoughts for the campfire is all. We adults tend to multiply procedures over time, eh? Sometimes they just need to be pruned.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Twocubdad]

 

Problem is, Beav, you're not eliminating the administrivia -- you've still got phone calls and follow ups and and emails and SOMEONE is writing all this down. You're just taking the Scouts out of the process.

 

How can that possibly be a good thing?

 

So try to put the boys back into your system of phone calls, messages, and I'll-send-him-an-email-when-I-get-home. It sounds all nice and warm and fuzzy (like a big ol' flat-tailed rodent), and it works until it doesn't when someone gets busy and puts off making a phone call and oh, what was that kid's name I'm sure he was in troop 96 (or was that 69?) I guess I'll ask around at Roundtable....

 

Boys thrive on predictability and consistency. Blue cards are that plus reliable, redundant and replaceable. And when you leave it in your uniform pocket and it goes through the wash, it even gives you a fuzzy wad of blue paper pulp to remind you to get another!

[Basementdweller]

Hal has the idea........

 

I like it but with some conditions.......Experienced Unit level scouters....with between 4-7 years experience.

 

I would like to add youth as well. Life and Eagle scouts.....

[Beavah]

You're just taking the Scouts out of the process. How can that possibly be a good thing?

 

Nah, we're just taking all of the middlemen out of the process, so that there's as direct a connection between the boy's learning and his recognition as possible. That's not takin' the lad out of the process, it's takin' all the adult gobbledegook out of da process.

 

In fact, I'm not sure why, on completion of a merit badge, the MBC should not issue the lad the badge on the spot. When yeh have met da expectations, yeh deserve the recognition. That's the best way to go in terms of personal growth and character development, because it makes da connections between those things and recognition clear and close.

 

No need for a lick of paperwork or computer tracking program at all, eh? Or, if yeh like, da lad has a precious MB completion card that he can take care of and put in binders and pet at night for all those who care about Permanent Records. Still no need for Blue Cards.

 

Easy peasy.

 

I reckon we adults just make things way too complicated.

 

Beavah

 

[Twocubdad]

WAITER!

 

I'll have one of whatever he's drinking!

 

 

;)Cheers!

[NJCubScouter]

I guess my main response to this whole subject should be this: Up until a few days ago when this thread (or was it the other thread) started and someone commented that many councils and units do not use blue cards, I never even considered that a Scout could get a merit badge without a blue card. Seriously. I have never seen it happen in my life, and that includes about seven years as a Boy Scout, seven years as father of a Scout, and going on three more years after that as a committee member. As I have said, they are mandatory in my council, not just in my troop. They are an ingrained part of the program to me. Even if my troop wanted to use some other method of recordkeeping and "information flow", we would still have to use the blue cards as well. It's kind of like the air. There it is, it's the only readily available breathing medium in town. If we want to breathe, if we want Scouts to get merit badges, there they are, the air and blue cards.

 

Ok, so now I find out that there are places in the BSA where you don't actually need blue cards. Well, if my council suddenly became such a place, I would still need to see something better before I would abandon the blue cards. Like TwoCubDad, I have no reason to immediately abandon the blue cards. If there is something better, fine. But what Beavah describes does not sound like "it". Everybody comes up with their own system, fine, but what? A call or email to the Advancement Chair? (Of which I am one.) Too error prone. Maybe as a backup, but not as the only method of passing along the information. Actually I don't keep the records myself anyway, but I think the same goes for the person who does. So, sure, something better would be fine, but it has to actually be better, and not just because blue cards seem too bureaucratic or because we don't want the kids to get paper cuts. (Actually a cut with a blue card would probably be pretty unpleasant.)

 

But like I said, this is all just an academic exercise in a council that is still wedded to blue cards.

[Beavah]

Yah, well, Twocubdad. I reckon I like to clast some icons from time to time.

 

NJCubScouter, there are all kinds of fine ways to handle youth recognitions, and they very well might vary between units of different sorts.

 

I see that as a feature, not a bug.

 

As to your council, I'm not sure why anybody would really want to add to the requirements and put a whole bunch of extra hurdles in a boy's way that really don't have much to do with scoutin' when yeh get right down to it. Unless they do it just to see TwoCubDad hurl!

 

Beavah

 

[NJCubScouter]

As to your council, I'm not sure why anybody would really want to add to the requirements and put a whole bunch of extra hurdles in a boy's way that really don't have much to do with scoutin' when yeh get right down to it.

 

Not "a whole bunch". "Several" would be more accurate. Blue cards, though I am not sure the blue cards themselves are really a hurdle. Having to bring the cards to the EBOR even if there is no discrepancy in the records is an unnecessary hurdle, although the fact is that since all of the troops are aware of it, they help the boys through it, lost cards are replaced, binders are purchased to organize the cards, etc. etc. Since everybody knows what is "required", everybody does what is "required." I am not aware of any boys having missed out on making Eagle because of it. About the thing I discussed in the other thread, of having to have the application in on or before the 18th birthday even though the GTA says that doesn't need to happen, I can make a guess. My guess is that "A Scout is Trustworthy" is not good enough for them, and they are concerned that someone might continue work on the Eagle requirements for a day or two or three past the 18th birthday and then backdate the signatures and the Scout (or parent) claims they couldn't get to the council service center before the birthday but here's the application, all signed as of B-minus-1. Maybe they didn't always have the current rule, and that happened. I don't know. I'm just guessing.

 

I would say that one more hurdle, in the past, was that (in my opinion) the district advancement committees required considerably more "planning" before approving projects than was contemplated in the old workbook. It was also common knowledge that less than X amount of hours wouldn't cut it. All of this has been banned in the new workbook, which doesn't even require a plan in order to get approval. I have heard that the council IS following the rules on that one.

 

But as to the basic question of "why", I really don't think it's just for the sake of creating hurdles. For each "hurdle" I am sure someone thought there was a good reason at the time, or still does, even if the reason isn't actually so good.

[Bando]

In my troop, we use the blue card system. And as a merit badge counselor, let me say that the system has saved my butt, as well as those of several scouts, not to mention the troop, on more than a few occasions.

 

For example. A dad comes up one night and says "my son says he earned this badge from you two years ago at camp. He's on the verge of an advancement and needs the badge, but his advancement record doesn't show it." Me: "Well, have him talk to me. But let me check my records, I don't recall him completing the badge with the rest of the guys." Talk to the scout, he can't really say one way or the other. I'm certain he didn't finish, but it's my word against his. I go to my stack of completed blue card stubs, and sure enough, I've got nothing. He can't produce his stub to show he earned it. It's not in the troop's files, nor on the advancement report. No badge, sorry, out of luck. Historic MB, too, so extra out of luck.

 

Scout comes up to me and says "I earned this badge with you, but the troop doesn't have a record of it." Me: "Let me check my records. Do you have the stub?" He's already ahead of the game, has the stub with him, I get mine, we go to the advancement guy with the laptop and fix the problem. Clerical error. It happens. Everyone goes home happy, and in a fraction of the time.

 

A really nice, extraordinarily shy boy starts an Eagle-required badge with me when he's 12. It's beyond his abilities to finish it at that point in time. He just can't grasp the topic to get some of the lengthier requirements done with his emotional maturity and attention span. His blue card is a partial. Three years later, he comes back to me and says he's ready to finish. Pulls out the blue card, we go over what he hadn't done yet, and as a 15 year old, he does one of the best jobs I've seen a boy pull off for this particular badge. I admired his tenacity, and his ability to stick with it. And without that blue card, he might have had to do the entire thing over again, which would have been a lot of his valuable high school-aged time. Instead, he could quickly finish and move on to other things. Success.

 

A notebook? Stack of web printouts? Xeroxed requirements out of the MB book? Email? No thanks. With a blue card, there are three components that can prove the same thing, and one or two of the three can save a scout, troop, and/or MBC a lot of hassle and time. As adults, we're here to make sure the kids don't get screwed over by an avoidable mistake or two, not to mention keep them honest if they claim to have done X, Y, or Z at 12 and it's 17 and 11 months and they're trying to slip in a last-minute Eagle push. It seems to me responsible advancement procedures in regards to record keeping are facilitated best by the blue card system. Why take a chance?

(This message has been edited by Bando)