Service Hours, Double Dipping?

[fred8033]

Focusing on no double dipping is just noise. I agree with previous comment that most scouts have performed service many times over.

 

I know that if I say "There's no explicit rule saying you can't count the same service for both rank and the merit badge", someone will respond that of course not every single possible rule combination is documented. Or that it should be obvious you can't do both. Or why have such low standards. Or .... one of many other dozen rules ....

 

But if we apply the no double dipping rule, it should be done consistently.

 

---- Camping nights used for both first class rank and the camping merit badge.

 

---- Cooking meals used for both rank and the Cooking merit badge.

 

---- Hiking for both first class rank and the Hiking merit badge.

 

---- Interviewing a community leader for both first class rank and citizen of the community.

 

---- Lashings for first class rank and pioneering.

 

The list can go on and on. Arguing for "no double dipping" is the first step to get ready to track many requirements and which was already spent to complete a requirement.

 

...

 

A key issue is that scouting focuses on experiences. You earn the fishing merit badge by catching fish. Not by trying to catch fish. But on the other side, if while a Boy Scout you already caught the fish, you completed the requirement. You've been there. Done that.

 

I view it the same as the service requirement. You did the quantity asked for. So what if it was counted elsewhere too. Do we start auditing school and church too?

 

...

 

IMHO, focus on that we do service because we are scouts and we value helping others. It's part of who we are. If the hours look at all reasonable to meet the requirement in front of you at the time, credit it and move on. Heck, there is no BSA published guidance saying you can't. If anything, we have the option, why not support the scout.

[Eagle732]

A few points:

I routinely sign off both 2nd and 1st Class swimming requirement for when a scout completes the BSA Swimmer test. He doesn't need to do it twice.

 

We have to keep track of hours because the current requirements state a certain number of hours are needed. However we can (and should) encourage the spirit of community service by providing opportunities and educating our scouts on why each service project is important.

 

My troop has a committee member that oversees service projects, he screens project requests. We had to set some standards for projects and start screening after being overwhelmed with last minute requests. Now we don't even consider a service project without 30 days notice. Also we never schedule in conflict with a camping trip or other activity.

 

 

[fred8033]

Our "approval" is more like ....

 

SCOUT: Scoutmaster ###, I'm going to work on ###### this weekend. Okay?

 

SCOUTMASTER: Sounds great. Look forward to hearing about it.

[Tampa Turtle]

Fred,

 

Our Troop is pretty consistent on not allowing any "double dipping" on any of your examples.

 

As for service you usually can get a feel for which boys (or parents) are gaming the system for quickest vs the ones that you know are always doing cheerful service all the time--they are usually the ones who don't keep good track of what they do.

[qwazse]

I'm sorry, but if any boy hasn't done a day of good in six months time, he should be kicked to the curb.

 

We had to set some standards for projects and start screening after being overwhelmed with last minute requests. Now we don't even consider a service project without 30 days notice. Also we never schedule in conflict with a camping trip or other activity.

 

What's wrong with last minute requests? Half our projects occur during campouts.

 

Imagine this situation: patrol x while on their hike, find a vandalized cemetery. They find the farmer who owns the land, and he explains that he has been catching up on tornado damage and would love to see the toppled stones righted. PL calls SM and asks to adjust hike plan so they can spend the afternoon fixing things. SM approves, and boys get to spend sunset looking over their work. They set up camp nearby to watch over he dead. In the evening the vandals come by, and PL explains how uncool it was what they did. The boys then walk the thugs through the graveyard, showing them the many infants were buried beside their young moms (cholera probably), and the chief thug asks if he can come to their next meeting. Everyone parts amicably.

 

A couple of patrol X come back to the next meeting ready to log rank advancement, and your committee member says, "Sorry, you should have waited until next month to do that good deed, those hours don't count, troop rule."

[bnelon44]

Unless otherwise specified, an activity or skill training may count toward more than one requirement towards any rank or merit badge. In the case of skills, it is up to the individual who is testing the Scout whether or not to have the Scout demonstrate knowledge or proficiency in the skill. Proficiency means the Scout is familiar with the subject and is comfortably able to perform the requirement as stated.

[Eagledad]

>>What's wrong with last minute requests? Half our projects occur during campouts.

[boomerscout]

I would also say NO.

An aside, the Star service is under the aegis of the Scoutmaster, while the mb is under the merit badge counselor. As these are supposedly two different people, the service should be two different projects.

Otherwise, any Scout that earns the mb while second class can logically argue that his past service can apply to his Star efforts when he gets to that point.

 

"---- Hiking for both first class rank and the Hiking merit badge." You can do this if you file a hike plan, and have seen your counselor before hand. This is in print

 

 

[bnelon44]

boomerscout,

 

You said, "Otherwise, any Scout that earns the mb while second class can logically argue that his past service can apply to his Star efforts when he gets to that point. "

 

No it would not since the Star requirement specifically states, "While a First Class Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least six hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster."

 

 

[Beavah]

Yep, I too would say "no". To all of fred8033's examples as well. In, fact, in at least some of those examples I think there's an official "no" (and I might not be remembering an official "yes" somewhere, in which case I'd go with that).

 

For da case in question, there's a difference in da purpose of the service hours. So in doin' the service and discussin' it afterward, the boy is being asked to look at different things. That means yeh want him to do those hours separately.

 

Like everyone else, I'm not fond of "mandatory" service, but that's not what's goin' on in Scouting unless the adults don't understand how to use advancement as inspiration and recognition instead of as an Aim or requirement. Like everyone else, I agree that in any good program with a First Class scout or above, the lad should be doin' so much more service than the requirement that it isn't really worth keepin' track of. Just like camping nights.

 

Beavah

 

[WasE61]

I don't see why it would be an issue...especially if the kid happens to be in multiple organizations that mandate CS hours....like Honor Society and Scouts. Hours are hours. Mine had to do 50 hours of service for NJHS and then whatever for Scouts. I don't know if he double dipped or not.

 

Some states have a CS requirement to graduate, although you have the option as a parent to say no to that.

 

 

[fred8033]

I just re-read the MB requirement. It says "While working on this merit badge, volunteer at least eight hours of your time for the organization." That puts a boundary saying you can't count hours before you started working on the MB. Other MBs fall into the basic GTA rule stating that you can't credit work done before becoming a Boy Scout.

 

...

 

IMHO, this comes down to the MB counselor is responsible for the MB. The scoutmaster and unit are responsible for rank. The MB counselor is not responsible for rank advancement and the scoutmaster/unit is not responsible for MB requirements. If the MB counselor believes the scout has met the requirements, it's a done deal. The MB counselor is NOT responsible for rank advancement and NOT responsible to check if "double dipping" has occurred. That's just not his responsibility.

 

Similarly, the scoutmaster (or his designated authorized signer) is responsible for rank advancement. Other than consulting on the choice of the MB counselor, the SM is NOT responsible for how individual MB requirements are completed. If he, or designee, approves a requirement, it's done. MB are NOT a unit responsibility.

 

MB counselors are registered with the council/district. MB counselor is not a unit position.

 

Troops are completely off base when they start doing things such as tracking individual MB requirement details ... OR ... allocating individual units of work to rank OR MB advancement. It's just not their job.

 

Soapbox... This happens when people start thinking the program is too easy on the scouts. Or that scouts are gaming the system. That's just bad attitude. The program is the program and the requirements are what they are. We don't need to find a way to make them more difficult.

 

Just do a good job on each requirement and do a good job supporting the scout. The "double dipping" debate is just noise.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[bnelon44]

fred8033

 

Yes, if the requirement says while working on this merit badge do the service hours. Then it would be setting a time frame of when to do it. However if the Scout is also working on 2nd class....

 

I agree with the rest of what you said.

[Basementdweller]

fred I completely disagree with scouts that fulfill the requirement many times over......

 

We have a scout that is held up because he needs service hours for star......He will not do anything other than meetings and camp outs.....

 

No selflessness in the boy.....he is 12 years old.

[fred8033]

bnelon44 - I probably was unclear. If the scout is 2nd class (or what ever class) and working on the MB, fine. I'm just saying that the MB counselor should pay attention to the words in the MB requirement as written. The troop pays attention to the advancement requirements as written. If the service matches the requirements, I'm okay with it. If anything, it's a coordination issue the scout needs to take care of solving. Describing it as "double dipping" or "gaming the system" is just poor sportsmanship.