Guide to Advancement - What Needs to Change?

[fred8033]

Twocubdad - Agreed. We would probably not be a good match for each other's troop. And just to clarify, we have had multiple eagle scouts recently. But they've all been 17 years old and pretty much continually active since they joined in 2005. We might have another one next year too. He'll be our youngest at 16, but he's an extremely busy and driven kid.

 

I must admit I'm okay if a scout gets all he can out of scouts when he's 14 or 15 and moves on. I've yet to see it, but all the more power to the scout. It's about growth. If he needs to move to get new experiences, fine. That's his path to choose.

[bnelon44]

Twocubdad,

 

"So despite my not believing in or supporting FY/FC; that I don't think FY/FC is beneficial to either the troop or the individual Scouts, and that I actively counsel my Scouts to slow down and take longer than a year to earn First Class, you're saying because we have the programs in place which could allow a Scout to earn First Class in a year despite all these objections that we have met our responsibilities under the Advancement Guidelines and can check that box? "

 

If you are teachinge the Scouts the basic Scoutcraft skills in 12 months, you are teaching them the 1st Class skills. So if you are not giving them the rank, why? Isn't that unfair to the boy?

 

Anyway, think about what the purpose of rank advancement is. It isn't to check a box in a book.

 

>Cool. At least you're consistent!

 

I try to be.

 

 

[Eagle92]

I know beaver can handle himself on his own, but I believe a good bit of what he does so I need to make a few comments

 

1) I know a lot of scouters, scouters who have been around 20, 30, 60 years like myself DO see low expectations of the scouts coming not only leaders in their units but national literature.

 

Again the the old BSHBs wrote of mastery of Scoutcraft skills. I've found only 1 reference to mastering skills, specifically First Aid, in the current HB. Also when training literature states that, and I am paraphrasing here, :"Sign off the skills on their checklist as they do them just as you would a scout for his advancement" aslo undercuts the message that a scout needs to really know and be able to do the skills, not just one and done.

 

And I've seen leaders who do not have any expectations that scouts can retain skills over time, let alone actually lead. Heck there are some posts on this site that it appears that the poster does not expect scout to remember stuff.

 

If that is not low expectations, then I do not know what is.

 

2)In regards to slighting FCFY, some of us have been around when it was still called "Operation First Class" and read all the reports on why they created the program, i.e. membership retention. I was a Scout in 1989 when it came out, and even I commented that the stats used to promote the program only looked at two items: membership stats and advancement stats. They didn't look at the entire picture, and that is PROGRAM (emph). If a unit has an active program, the kids will want to do the program, you do the program, and as BP stated "advancement will come a naturally as a suntan...."

 

One of the problems I see it is that by focusing on getting to FC in a year, it is encouraging the One and Done mentality. I have seen a lot of Scouts recently who do not have the same level of skills that I and my peers had. Best, or worse depending upon your view, example I can give is the firebuilding event at a camporee a few years back. Out of all the patrols competing, only one, yep 1 (emph), could actually build a fire, and light it. And the patrols that could not build and start a fire included a venture patrol that went to Philmont that summer!

 

It got so bad that the judges,after waiting about 5-10 minutes for a NSP that went though the First Year Camper program at summer camp just freezing and doing nothing, decided that they needed to show the NSP how to make tinder, kindling, and fuel and build a fire.

 

And it is affecting other areas as well. Last time I was an elangomat at an Order of the Arrow Ordeal, you know a group that started out as an honor camper society and has camping requirements, NONE of the candidates, both youth and adult, were prepared for wet weather among other things. We had to issue garbage bags to waterproof their gear and make impromptu ponchos. And the comment I heard from one leader about wet weather gear and the other stuff that one normally brings camping was, "We were not told what to bring other than...."

 

And I hate to say it, but as Bnelon even stated, the current BSHB doesn't contain all the information that one really needs to go camping like it use to. that's why both of us had to create handouts for basic outdoor skills when teaching IOLS.

 

So we do see evidence that the focus of FCFY is damaging the program.

 

3)In regards to "Mocking the experience of the BSA team as disconnected," again I hate to say it, but it is true. The higher up you go in Scouting, the less time you spend in the field. Less time you spend in the field, the less you know what is really going on.

 

Again I worked as a DE and for national supply. When the National Director for Venturing comes into your training, tells a group of about 30 Eagle Scouts, WBers, former vols turned pro, etc that "The Venturing Silver Award will replace Eagle as the BSA's top award," that is a major disconnect.

 

When national comes out with rules like the ones that came out in April, i.e. Cubs can no longer use their little red waggons b/c they need to be 14+ according to the DOL rules that business and some adult volunteer organizations use, there is a MAJOR disconnect.

 

And even at the council and lower national levels it's there. Again my national scout shop boss could not understand why I created the SOP manual for the summer camp trading post I was hired to run as part of a pilot program because the boss had no experience in summer camp operations. It was only after working jambo did the boss get an inkling of what is entailed.

 

4) Have you ever had to deal with food poisoning at camp? I have. At the JLT course I was SPL for, an entire patrol save one got sick and left midweek. Reason why the one remained, he saw how the others were preparing the food that night, tried to tell them they were doing things wrong and was ignored. He decided not to eat that night and it saved him.

 

Proper handling of food IS NOT a joking matter.

 

5) As for "Pulling in ethereal quotes that just don't have squat to do with the discussion," I do not see that as the case on either side. I see both sides of quotes as relevant, but one side is also using tradition, history, and other resources that are harder to get (An aside Beavah do you know how hard it is to get a copy of the Rules and Bylaws that all the other stuff is suppose to be based on? I was a DE and didn't have a copy of them. Maybe that's one reason why there is some inconsistency?)

 

6) In regards to the comment"Focusing on the good times from way back in their past only to the remember that those times were being slighted too. (i.e. pre-1989 requirements reference is funny because it's the same people criticizing the 1970s scouting urbanization that according to them did such damage. It's pretty much the same requirements," I admit there does indeed appear to be a major disconnect on us 'old Fogeys." BUT there is one difference, or more specifically one man who made the difference, between the scouting program from 1972-1978 and 1979-1989: WILLIAM "GREEN BAR BILL" HILLCOURT! (OK this time caps are shouting, not in anger but in jubilation as GBB is DA MAN and I am so glad he saved Scouting.)

 

While the requirements may appear similar,especially with the creation of Skill Awards in 1972, and Green Bar Bill's continued use of them in 1979, AND in fact the 1972 requirements may seem harder since MBs were required for T-2-1, The BIG difference is that from 1972-1979, and for sometime afterward if a scout Life prior to the switch over, it was theoretically possible for a scout to get eagle without ever going hiking or camping.

 

I'll give a few comparisions

 

In 1972, the 12 Skill Awards were introduced: Camping, Ciotizenship, Communications, Community Living,Conservation, Cooking, Environment, Family Living, First Aid, Hiking,Physical Fitness, and Swimming. 8 Skill Awards were required to the T-2-1 ranks of which only 1, Citizenship, was required for Tenderfoot. the other 7 were up to the scout. And in looking at the requirements, most could be done without ever being more the about 2 miles from home, and that included us city slicker .

 

In 1979, 8 Skill awards were still required for T-2-1. But Citizenship, Hiking, First Aid, Camping, and Cooking were now required. Again Green Bar Bill wrote into the requirements traditional Scouting skills.

 

Also what is not in the handbooks is also the stuff Green Bar Bill did to reintroduce traditional scouting skills via training, specifically his "All Out For Scouting" program to get both Scouts, specifically SPLs and those who could be SPL, and adult leaders up to snuff on their outdoor skills. Emb21 has a good description here

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=258277

 

In regards to Star, Life and Eagle, In 1972, Camping was not a required MB, and the other "outdoor oriented MBs, Swimming and Lifesaving did have other opitions. Camping returned in 1979, and the options remained. It wasn't until 1989 that Hiking MB and a few others if memory serves, became options as well.

 

7) As for 2 Cub's comment to 'Slow Down" it may be a very, valid point. I know I was under pressure from my uncle to get Eagle, and I can only imagine the pressure my cousin was under. As soon as my cousin got Eagle, he quit to pursue other interests. Now that is all and good, but he did miss out on a lot of fun. Where as I got "sidetracked" on advancement by having some fun: jambo, 50 miler, OA, etc.

 

And I am beginning to see pressure on scouts to get Eagle more and more. When I first heard the "no license until Eagle" I thought it was hilarious as I was a Scout at the time. But over the years I am seeing it as a burden on the scouts, and some rebel over that. Best example was the Scout with 64 MBs and did everything but a service project for eagle. Why no project? He got fed up with his parents and deliveratly quit to tick them off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

Bnelon,

 

There is a BIG difference between having a program that teaches T-2-1 skills over the year, and a scout earning rank. Scouts have to attend and participate in order to learn the skills. It can be challenging for some who leave for sports and come back a few months later to catch up.

[5yearscouter]

Been following along,

the changes to the Guide to Advancement clarifying things that were confusing before have been overall pretty good.

 

But the work as a whole gives the impression of one and done being the standard. I think the do, review, test parts should all have some kind of separation--that they all probably shouldn't be done and signed on the same day. And if it says tie a knot, it doesn't mean tie the knot today, and then tomorrow go tell your SM or whoever in your troop signs books "hey I tied that knot yesterday" and then they sign it. I think there should definitely be more clarification that when the book it signed, THAT is the time where the testing occurs.

 

But then that kind of interpretation of the requirements certainly starts in cub scouts. I'm looking at the list of "things your scout earned at day camp" right now-- and the idea that "do your best" doesn't mean each scouts works to do their best--instead if whoever is teaching did their best, but under the situation they couldn't do all the parts of the requirement but that's ok. for instance they are teaching weather belt loop and need to collect the weather data for a week, but only have 3 days to collect the weather data at day camp--but that's ok, we'll sign it anyway. Or that where it says make a poster of the water cycle, it's perfectly ok for one adult to make a poster of the water cycle and everyone else to just look at it.

 

That is subtracting from the requirements and I think that is a much much more prevalent proble than adding to the requirements. You add to the requirements too much without good reason and the scouts go elsewhere. You subtract from the requirements, and the scouts get something for nothing and they learn that is all that this scouting game is about-- awards that don't mean anything.

 

I'm dealing with my oldest probably not finishing his Eagle. It was a bit huge carrot in his eyes, something WORTHY of achieving. But he sees the scouts who are earning it and having camped with them for years, he knows they were a 1 time and done group for the most part. So many of the ones who don't know any scout skills, couldn't tie a knot if they had to and did it one time to get it signed in their book.

 

Sure the program should use that knot again over and over, but with a large troop, and instructors and troop guides doing the bulk of showing those knots to the new guy, too many of the scouts just hang back and work thru the requirements and not really participate in keeping their scout skills current and active.

 

so son is 16+ in a troop that has 5 Eagles so far this year, with about 7 Life scouts currently working on their project plans--these are mostly older boys 16-17 year olds that have been with this program for years. But only a handful of them seem to have done their best all these years, and only a handful of those seem to really know what Be Prepared means and could do it in a pinch.

 

I'd really like to see a rewrite of the BSHB.

I'd like to see a revamp of the requirements, so each rank in trail to 1st class has to be earned in order, and you don't start on the next one until the previous one is completed.

And certainly do what you can to get rid of SOME of the double or triple dipping.

 

Sure in theory with actual skills req if you can tie the knot for pioneering you can tie the knot for trail to first class req. But if you cook for your patrol one weekend, should it count for camping merit badge, trail to 1st class and cooking merit badge? or if you camp 10 nights and 1 long term camp, should it count for trail to first class, camping merit badge, with the nights camping on a backpacking trip counting for backpacking merit badge and it all counting toward OA?

 

It seems to be stacking things to get more awards,

not to get more knowledge and experience.

 

And without knowledge and experience, the whole thing is a wash.

[JMHawkins]

It you need to say one requirement trumps another, I'd call that avoidance because your saying to meet one requirement you need to throw out another.

 

I'll bring in an engineering perspective. There's an old saying in engineering: Good, fast, cheap, pick any two. Sometimes it three different parameters, but it's always three and it represents an inherent trade-off.

 

The basic idea is that the customer (or the boss) can specify what he wants for two of those three things and the third will be whatever it takes to meet the goals of the other two. It's like drawing a triange. You can draw the first two legs any length or angle you want, but the third one has to be whatever it takes to close the gap. You can't specify the third leg of the triangle, it is what it is based on the other two. If you want me to design you a car that's fast and reliable, it probalby isn't going to be cheap. If you want it cheap and reliable, it probably isn't fast. etc. I have to sacrifice something from the third leg to make the other two work.

 

So for a Scouting FC advancement program, the relvant trio is probably number of skills, depth of learning, and time to learn. You can specify two, and the third is what it is. So if you want the boys to learn this set of skills to that level of mastery, then it will take whatever time it takes for them to get there. With the current FC skill set and a level of mastery consistent with retention and practical use of those skills, that will probably be longer than a year. The basic message is master these skills as quickly as you can.

 

Or, you could specify the number of skills and the time frame, and then the level of mastery will be whatever it is to make the other two work. That's basically what FCFY does, it says the goal if for the scouts to learn these skills to whatever level of mastery they can in a year. The time and the quantity are specified, the quality is whatever it is, and my gut feel is it will usually be significantly less than what is needed to retain and make practical use of those skills.

 

[bnelon44]

5yearscouter

 

Tell your son that his standards are good and he shouldn't judge the Eagle award by what other Scouts who may be less deserving are getting away with. He will find that a lot in life. That doesn't mean he shouldn't strive for Eagle nor that he can't make Eagle all that it is meant to be. If he thinks he is going to follow the Eagle Code for the rest of his life, and if he thinks Eagles before him (not all but some, are OK in his book, then he should go for it.)

 

Here are some interesting videos he should watch if interested:

http://www.nesa.org/VOSawards.html

 

Some interesting facts

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/marketing/doc/eaglescoutsfactsheet.docx

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/marketing/pdf/eaglescoutsinformationgraphic.pdf

 

 

 

[Venividi]

bnelon,

 

That is the type of hypocrisy that youth see right through. They see when adults give out awards for one and done, that their standards for handing out awards is pathetic.

 

Why in the world would a sane youth be motivated to pursue an award that, through first hand observation, is not given for what a scout can do (as adults like to say), but is given out for a one and done. Given by adults to scouts that other scouts do not respect. Any young man worth his salt will ignore such awards and devote his attention to something that matters. Something that gives him a feeling of accomplishment.

[5yearscouter]

In some ways boy scouts has been too easy for my boys, but that's cause they come in with a hefty set of scout skills from years of camping, hunting, hiking, fishing, outdoors stuff--but also cooking, cleaning, family service, scholarship and community service and more as that's how our family does things.

 

I don't have any worry that my 16+ year old will decide to jump thru the hoops to finish his Eagle, but the award does not exemplify what he thinks it should--that the award is tarnished by how it's given out.

 

Part if it is our unit but at this point, that won't change, although at times I want to go running screaming from the way things are done, or beat my head against the wall trying to get them to acknowledge how they do some things is certainly not the BSA way and it isn't working to keep boys. but anyway, the unit is a problem but he's embraced that 110% because as a young SPL at 14 just out of NYLT training elected by 50 boys to lead them for over a year--he pushed hard to get things on track, but has had sooooo far to come, and such a custom of the bar being set too low for too many years.

 

He certainly wouldn't give up the troop at this point, not even for his 12+ year old brother. Instead the two of them have worked so hard to make their small parts of the troop stronger, the boys they interact with have a better experience than they had.

 

so he's off working at summer camp--helping to teach cooking merit badge, and certainly it's a bit of 1 and done but they are making homemade chicken soup and beef stroganoff and such, so they aren't shorty cutting much. At least I know he's drilling the food safety rules. I know he's bemoaning the fact he can't have them all practice dutch oven biscuits due to the severe fire danger(no charcoal fires). They'll come out cooking better than they would have after the local mb university cooking class.

 

He just did a week at Philmont at NAYLE and txted home asking if they were still looking for an SPL for December's NAYLE course. He has a heart full of cheerful service.

 

I do like the idea to think of advancement as that triangle mentioned above. BSA can set the skills and suggest the proficiency, but if they put in a maximum suggested time for FCFY, the amount of skills or the amount of proficiency goes down. so how best to get around that and increase the skills and proficiency.

 

I hate the repeated you can't add to nor take away from the requirements. Some take that to mean that if the MB says you have to do 1, 2, 3 if you throw in extra stuff to make the boys understand 1, 2, & 3 better and get more fun out of the badge, then you are adding to the requirements. So I've seen a few MB counselors, so afraid of adding to the requirements that they spent their time reading answers from the merit badge pamphlet. And these were people who had supposedly been doing it for years. But they'd been called on "adding to the requirements" by going on field trips and having hands on demos and such (not required but recommended)such taht they were now afraid to have fun with the topic.

 

Like a boy scout wanting to use the necessary knots to make a trebuche and being told that wasn't what is required so here just tie these two ropes together.

[moosetracker]

Something a MBC can do if they want to bring a MB to life, rather then read from a pamplet, or do a "one-and-done" method. When the boy calls or walks up to them to ask if they can take the MB with them, they can explain how they cover the merit badge to add more indepth understanding & knowledge to it. If the boy wishes to persue it with them, then they are forewarned and have accepted the extras. Now the MBC can eiter choose to work with the ones that do not want the added info in the one-and-done method, or they can let the boy know they would be better off with a different MBC.

 

I don't remember if I read it, or if it was in a MB counsilor class. But, you are welcome to ask the boy if they would like to see or do extra and let them decide.

 

I myself dislike it when someone comes to me with the blasted worksheet filled in and just expect me to read it and sign them off on it and on the first visit expect to be in and out in 5 to 10 minutes with me.. It is very hard to work around the one-and-done mentality when that happens, and I suspect most of what they wrote down was googled.. I still stive to pull away from it somewhat, but is something that is a drain on a productive learning style.

 

My husband says he likes the worksheets.. Bah, humbug!.. He had to answer the DE's inquiry about someone stating that the worksheets have replaced the blue cards, and was trying to get their whole unit & MBC's to change to doing MB only using the worksheet..

 

Husband started the email stating they did not replace the bluecard, but then tried to put that worksheets were a great tool, that organized the boys before coming to the MBC.. I (in my wifely fashion) had him change that to while some MBC's may like them, some MBC's do not and have the right to ask the scout to not use them if they wish to do the badge with them.

 

It may be the type of Meritbadges my husband does verses what I do that we have different perspectives. He does swimming, lifesaving and camping.. I do communication and family life.. With his (especially swimming & lifesaving) only a fraction can be done through the worksheet. Where as mine (especially the communication one).. The boy can have the whole thing done through a worksheet before the very first meeting takes place.. Family life not so much, but what they have to do is with their family not me, so I still may end up with my dealings with them being the worksheet and other paperwork (3 month tracker and reports..).. With no worksheets I get great discussions, with worksheets I get some disappointed boys who do not wish to enter into discussions with me (even when the requirement says

"discuss with your counsilor"), simply want me to read their worksheets and sign them off.

 

It has occured the other way though also. I know my sons friend ended up in a "Cit. & the World" MB course where the MBC handed him the worksheet and expected him to fill it out to get signed off on it.. The MBC was hiding his lack of knowledge behind the worksheet. The scout ditched the MBC, and we looked for an MBC who would bring the merit badge to life.

[bnelon44]

moosetracker

 

You can embellish a merit badge counseling all you want, you just can't make it mandatory to achieving the badge since that would be adding a requirement.

 

 

[Lisabob]

5yearscouter, my son had a very similar view of Eagle in particular, and advancement in general, for a long time. There were lots of examples of how more senior scouts didn't possess the basic skills and had fairly serious scout spirit/behavior issues and yet, were held up as role models by troop adult leaders.

 

But you know, there were lots of boys making 1st Class and Star so everything must be good, right?

 

My son would say things like "if so-and-so is Star/Life/Eagle, that rank must not mean very much." and "I don't want any award that puts me in the category with those guys." No amount of me telling him that the ranks only mean what you make them mean for yourself, was going to change that. As Venividi says, he saw right through it and lost respect for that aspect of the program as well as some of the leaders, for doing it. And so he sat at Star for over 3 years and the advancement method became irrelevant to him.

 

Then he switched troops. Expectations for rank are different in this troop, both in terms of skill and behavior. The best scouts, the ones who everybody looks up to, are the ones encouraging others to advance and also holding high standards. They help each other meet those standards. There's an expectation that a Star, Life, or Eagle scout in this troop should be able to do (and teach) the basic skills, and show good character and leadership. Of course boys have less-than-perfect moments, but on the whole, they expect a lot of themselves and their peers. And they don't want to let each other down.

 

It still took him close to 2 years to come around to a different view of advancement. His change of view was the product mainly of his current patrol mates, who ganged up on him and explained in painful detail exactly why THEY expected him to at least earn Life, and be seriously thinking about Eagle. They didn't want him to set a bad example for younger scouts with his view of advancement.

 

He will most likely earn Eagle now (everything done but a little bit of paperwork), but because of that delay, he'll earn it pretty much the last day before he turns 18.

 

So I guess my advice to you would be: help your son find a way to connect with other older boys who have different experiences with scouting and advancement. Maybe through OA? Maybe a Venturing Crew? Maybe just friends from other troops? Maybe cousins/relatives from elsewhere who are (were) also in scouting?

[bnelon44]

Venividi, Eagle92, et. al

 

Almost all a Scout sees as far as advancement is concerned comes from his local troop or neighborhood troops. So if the local troop doesn't put out a quality program then the Scout sees Eagles matriculating who are not of sound quality.

 

The advancement program is just one of 8 methods that go into making an Eagle Scout. Neglecting the other 7 methods and just looking at the requirements isn't going to make a good Eagle Scout. And I think that is what these boys are seeing.

 

One of the ideas behind pushing FC1Y is to get the Scoutmasters concentrating on the basic camping skills that first year rather than doing what a lot of parent want which is more Webelos pins (aka merit badges.) Remember a lot of parents just ended getting their boys ALL the Webelos badges so they jump into Boy Scouting thinking their son should start racking up merit badges as quickly as possible. A good SM needs to tell them that is not where the boy should be concentraing his first year. He should be concentrating on learning to camp and take care of himself in the outdoors (aka the 1st class requirements.)

 

Eagle92,

 

I think cooking should be an Eagle Required badge. The Advancement team had a survey about that a few weeks ago an that is what I said on it. If you want to participate in their surveys, subscribe to the Advancement newsletter. You also get results from the surveys. I think on that one the majority or at least a plurality of people asked said that cooking should be added replacing an optional badge. Not sure if that will happen but that was the results I saw of that survey. You can get access to the Advanement News on this page, link is on the left:

http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/BoyScouts.aspx

 

The latest survey seems to be active, the link is here:

https://bsa2.allegiancetech.com/cgi-bin/qwebcorporate.dll?idx=U7QSEQ

 

By the way, Eagle92, you mentioned you were having problems getting to BSA Rules and Regulations. Many of the BSA rules and regulations related to advancement are reprinted and start on page 75 of the Guide to Advancement.(This message has been edited by bnelon44)

[moosetracker]

bnelon wrote : You can embellish a merit badge counseling all you want, you just can't make it mandatory to achieving the badge since that would be adding a requirement.

 

I believe that is what I said, with the added clause that MBC can accept to be the MBC of a scout or not.. So if they have a sense that the boy wants a one-and-done, or a "fill in the blanks" and get a MB sign-off, and this is not the way the MBC works, they can politely tell the boy he would be better off with a different MBC.

[desertrat77]

Employment, parenting, fully participating in the faith of your choice, and being a good neighbor aren't "one and done."

 

At what point should the scouts learn this principle?