Eagle or not?

[shortridge]

At what point did the leadership say "Hey, why isn't this apparently qualified kid going on our campouts? Maybe we should ask him why the program doesn't interest him."

 

I'm guessing never, given all this angst over this last-minute Eagle stuff. That's a failure of this unit's leadership, and that's where the emphasis should be for the future Scouts.

 

A Scout who doesn't camp isn't a Scout.

[Scoutfish]

Sounds alot like on of my friends who "used" to love scouting until his dad told him he had to get Eagle by the time he was 16 or else he wouldn't be alowed to get his driver's license.

 

Could be that this boy was tired of scouting or possibly not even interested anymore, but parents gave him a "get Eagle or else...." ultimatum.

 

Maybe he wasn't active because he wasn't interested and did the bare minumum to get what he "had" to.

[moosetracker]

Shortridge: At what point did the leadership say "Hey, why isn't this apparently qualified kid going on our campouts? Maybe we should ask him why the program doesn't interest him."... I'm guessing never,

This may not be in the exact wording you want proof at but.. OP on initial post states

 

As a final chance to make up for his lack of participation, his scoutmasters met with him several times in the year before his 18th birthday...

 

Now asking the scout to do a project may have been wrong, but he clearly made know to the scout he had not met the troops expectation for involvement.

 

Second Class: Show me the Requirement

Definition of Active (per Guide to Advancement Page 21 from Scouting.org)

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

 

The third test as to if the scout was active is based on the unit's reasonable expectations.. Now he can piece together times to qualify, doesn't have to be in the last year.. Maybe the SM of his old Troop will sign.

 

4.2.3.1 Active Participation

The purpose of Star, Life, and Eagle Scout requirements

calling for Scouts to be active for a period of months

involves impact. Since we prepare young people to go

forth, and essentially, make a positive difference in our

American society, we judge that a member is active

when his level of activity in Scouting, whether high or

minimal, has had a sufficiently positive influence toward

this end.

Use the following three sequential tests to determine

whether the requirement has been met. The first and

second are required, along with either the third or

its alternative.

1. The Scout is registered. The youth is registered in

his unit for at least the time period indicated in the

requirement, and he has indicated in some way,

through word or action, that he considers himself

a member. If a boy was supposed to have been

registered, but for whatever reason was not, discuss

with the local council registrar the possibility of

back-registering him.

2. The Scout is in good standing. A Scout is considered

in good standing with his unit as long as he

has not been dismissed for disciplinary reasons.

He must also be in good standing with the local

council and the Boy Scouts of America. (In the

rare case he is not, communications will have

been delivered.)

3. The Scout meets the units reasonable expectations;

or, if not, a lesser level of activity is explained.

If, for the time period required, a Scout or qualifying

Venturer or Sea Scout meets those aspects of his

units pre-established expectations that refer to

a level of activity, then he is considered active

and the requirement is met. Time counted as

active need not be consecutive. A boy may

piece together any times he has been active

and still qualify.

[moosetracker]

Before someone else calls me on it, there are alternatives that were listed afterward to #3.. The scout could show positive participation in something else of a worthy cause..

 

Sorry. I first saw the 3 tests in a link that talked about recent changes to Advancement and did not show the alternative, I then went to the Guide itself to verify & pulled it, Did not see this as it was in the next column.

 

So possibly explanation of the work, play & chorus would count.. But before I counted it, I would ask him to explain to me how he thought it contribute to his growth in character,

citizenship, or personal fitness..

 

But, the main point is, their is now a clause that does not give a scout a free pass, while he sits on the couch, watching TV and eating potato chips.

 

(continuation)

Alternative to the third test if expectations are not met:

If a young man has fallen below his units activityoriented

expectations, then it must be due to other

positive endeavors in or out of Scoutingor to

noteworthy circumstances that have prevented a

higher level of participation (see below). In this case

a Scout is considered active if a board of review

can agree that Scouting values have already taken

hold and been exhibited. This might be evidenced,

for example, in how he lives his life and relates to

others in his community, at school, in his religious

life, or in Scouting. It is also acceptable to consider

and count positive activities outside Scouting

when they, too, contribute to his growth in character,

citizenship, or personal fitness. Remember; it is not

so much about what a Scout has done. It is about

what he is able to do and how he has grown

 

There may be, of course, registered youth who appear

to have zero level of activity. Maybe they are out of the

country on an exchange program, or away at school.

Or maybe we just havent seen them and wonder if

theyve quit. To pass the first test above, a Scout must be

registered. But he must also have made it clear through

outright participation or by communicating in some way

that he still considers himself a member, even thoughfor

nowhe may not meet full expectations. A conscientious

leader might make a call and discover the boys intentions.

If however, a Scout has been asked to leave his unit

due to behavioral issues or the like, or if the council or

the Boy Scouts of America has directedfor whatever

reasonthat he may not participate, then according to

the second test he is not considered active.

In considering the third test, it is appropriate for units

to set reasonable expectations for attendance and

participation. Then it is simple: Those who meet them

are active. But those who do not must be given the

opportunity to qualify under the third-test alternative

above. To do so, they must first offer an acceptable

explanation. Certainly, there are medical, educational,

family, and other issues that for practical purposes

prevent higher levels of participation. These must be

considered. Would the Scout have been more active if

he could have been? If so, for purposes of advancement,

he is deemed active.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[OldGreyEagle]

If the kid is so lackluster, and has been for 4 years why was he rechartered 3 times?

[John-in-KC]

OGE said it. Shortridge said it.

 

BTW, no, you do not have to GIVE him a POR.

 

Here's my question: How does his Scout Spirit measure up out in the community?

[Horizon]

I have seen similar cases multiple times serving on BORs and in my own Troop. A boy hits everything, including POR, by the time he is 14-15 years old. All that is left typically is the 3 3-monthers (Personal Management, Family Life and Personal Fitness) and the project.

 

Then, High School sets in, along with the 'fumes (gas and perfume as the joke goes).

 

The boy shows up 30% of the time, helps out at times, can even be a good resource - but girls / band / AP coursework / job / athletics get in the way of constant participation. They boy finally decides to finish the Eagle - nails a good project, does the final 3 badges, and goes to the BOR. I open his Handbook, see that >3 years ago he earned Life and after that might have been SPL for 6 months as a Life Scout. After that, he has typically been given a Guide or Instructor patch.

 

They pass. They did the work. It all lines up. Even better - they didn't earn Eagle "too young" as some around here like to gripe about!

[fred8033]

Horizon wrote it dead on. The one thing I'd add is that by the time boys hit 14-15 most scouts are just repeating the same experiences and camping trips over and over again. By the age of 14 /15 ... Four or five weeks of summer camps. 30 to 55 weekend camping trips. 100 to 180 troop meetings.

 

It's entirely natural, and to be encouraged, for a fifteen year old scout to want new experiences ... sports, school plays, choir, jobs, dating, etc. Plus we want our Eagle scouts to be outgoing, inquisitive and exploring other opportunities.

(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[Beavah]

Yah, I had to laugh at Kudu's answer, eh? That seems to be about the size of it, even in how some experienced folks are considerin' it here.

 

To answer SpencerCheatham's question, NO!, of course not. Our mission is the development of character, and advancin' this lad to Eagle would be the wrong lesson for him, and the wrong lesson for all of the other boys. It would defeat our mission. Lawyerin' what the meaning of "active" is is like former presidents tryin' to dispute what the meaning of "is" is, eh? It's an example of poor character. We must not teach that to our scouts.

 

The troop set expectations for active. They notified the lad that he had not met their expectations for active. They suggested ways he might improve and demonstrate that he was active. He did not follow through. They did everything they needed to do, the lad did not meet the requirement. Goin' to prom is not a valid alternate activity. Valid alternate activities have to do with caring for your mom who is undergoin' chemotherapy, where your obligation as a family member or citizen is such that proper scout spirit demands you be absent from the troop.

 

Now, I agree with OGE and others, eh? Da real issue here is that this boy should have been dropped from your roster 3 years ago, since he clearly was not an active member. Chalk that one up to a lesson learned. But that failure on your part of leavin' the light on for him does not mean he gets a free pass for doin' nothin'. Nor does it mean that yeh are obliged to lie on the Eagle application about what yeh think.

 

We honor today the men who gave the last full measure of devotion to their country. Expectin' no award other than the award of service to a cause greater than themselves. Not only did they show up... not only did they sacrifice their prom, and their social club at home, and their comfort... not only did they work and give their utmost... they persevered in the face of horror and despair until they gave the ultimate sacrifice to their brothers in uniform and the cause for which they gathered. Many of 'em no older than this lad.

 

Boy Scoutin' is a man's world, boy-sized. Teach your boys that honor demands that they show up, and that those who don a uniform but aren't willin' to serve or sacrifice for it aren't worthy of the honors that rightfully accrue to those who do.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Cito]

I've known quite a few boys who did exactly what Horizon said. Were active until high school, got distracted and wrapped up their requirements right before they hit 18. I don't see how it's any different than if he'd wrapped up at 15 and never came to another meeting or activity.

 

Take the opportunity to ask him about the program and maybe you'll discover some ideas that will make it more attractive for the next boy to stay involved. Personally, I lost interest in my troop at 14-15 and had to find Exploring and chances to be involved with other scouting activities. You can't keep everyone active forever, though we all try very hard.

 

BTW, sounds like he met the requirements.

[desertrat77]

Kudo's response is spot on--the requirements are designed to accomodate that route. Some Eagles hike to the mountain top, others take the escalator.

 

He's going to be an Eagle. He'll grow into it.(This message has been edited by desertrat77)

[boomerscout]

Of course he should advance to Eagle. It was the second troop that failed, not him.

[Brewmeister]

There sure are a lot of things that aren't good enough in Scouting. Certainly not as good as they used to be back in the day, that's for sure.

 

The Eagle ain't what it used to be...paper Eagles and parlor scouts, that's what they are I tell ya, and more of 'em sneaking it in just under age 18 than ever before. First class, what a joke, boys get it in one year now, can you believe it? They can't navigate their way out of a paper bag for goodness sake. Wood badge? Oh good grief don't even get me started, nobody who goes though the program nowadays goes through what WE went through. Posers and pantywaists, all of them.

[NJCubScouter]

I am among those who wonder what was going on in the three years after the young man joined the troop, before the "final year" in which the Scoutmaster started talking to him about his participation -- and trying to add to the Eagle requirements by giving the Scout additional things to do. Did the SM sit down with him for a talk after it became clear that the boy was not attending outings? Or did he wait until the fourth year?

 

There has been a lot of talk here about the "active" requirement and some mention of the POR requirement, but if we are to take the original post literally, he seems to have fulfilled those requirements with his previous troop. Those are both six-month requirements after the Life BOR. The original post said "As a Life scout with his previous troop he completed all of the necessary Eagle rank requirements except for 4 merit badges and his service project."

 

As for those who wonder why the Scout was rechartered... well, he didn't just disappear. He was attending meeting, though less than 30 percent, so let's assume he showed up to a weekly meeting once a month on average. Presumably he or his parents made whatever payments are necessary to stay on the charter. (In our troop it is annual dues, due in the fall, which the unit uses to pay the recharter fee in the spring; no dues, no recharter.) Plus he did manage to a project in there somewhere. That requires substantial effort.

 

BadenP says: "The BSA has altered the Eagle requirements to the point most any scout can receive the rank with minimal effort."

 

I think that is a ridiculous statement. You still have to get 21 merit badges, and the requirements for a number of those (particularly some of the Eagle-required badges) are more rigorous than they used to be. The project takes a lot of planning and effort (in some councils/districts it takes more than national intends.) National HAS redefined the "active" and POR requirements in a way that is less stringent than in the past, but overall much more than a "minimal effort" is required. Now, that assumes the requirements are being followed on the local level. But if they aren't, you can't blame "the BSA" for that, and you can't blame the requirements.

 

Beavah gives his interpretation of the active requirement, but it is not the interpretation that appears on page 21 of the "Guide to Advancement" (2011) published by the BSA, which moosetracker has quoted. I am not going to repeat the entire quotation, just the part where it says that it is "acceptable to consider and 'count' poisitve activities outside Scouting when they, too, contribute to his growth in character, citizenship, or personal fitness." That does NOT limit the "outside activities" to just caring for your sick mother.

 

And as I said, based on the original post the Scout may very well have met the 6-month "active" requirement before he even got to his current troop.

 

Finally, I find it interesting that the original poster says the leaders of the troop came to the conclusion that this particular Scout met the requirements for the rank, but several posters here don't seem to want to believe it.

 

 

[John-in-KC]

In the meantime, now that we're discussing this amongst ourselves, where is the OP? How have you all actually handled the (we presume) real youth member behind the hypothetical?