Board of Review

[Scoutfish]

johnponz,

 

Seattle isn't asking if he should do it. He's not asking for permission.

 

He stated:

"I've always been AS or SM when I've been a unit leader for a troop, so I haven't had occasion to sit on a BOR in my Scouter service, which began in 1981.

 

I'll have to read the BOR section in the SM Handbook.

 

Any other advice?"

 

Bold emphasis mine.

 

So, Seattle has aplan of action to brush up on and digest the process.

 

Just asking if we might offer some tips or advice that he can't find in the BOr book.

 

You know, based on our/your experience.

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello johnponz,

 

 

AQt the time I was asked, it didn't occur to me that there was an issue --- not until it was raised here.

 

 

I think NACAP's post contained pretty authoritative interpretation of the equivocal language in the Advancement book.

 

Still, I'll probably ask my DC for his opinion when I see him, just to see what kind of answer I get off the cuff.

 

You'll notice that, as often recommended on the board, I didn't accept the opinions of others as binding, or to be bound by people's interpretation of the ambiguous language of the Advancement guide. But NACAPS post made a reasonably authoritative reference to a specific discussion of this issue, which seems to clarify the ambiguous language.

 

Still, I'd be surprised if that interpretation is widely understood, although several people in this thread suggested it as a practice without the reference.

 

Anyway, it's been an interesting discussion. I'll be leaving shortly to do the BOR.

[John-in-KC]

Frankly, as a UC myself, I'm more concerned this Troop cannot get three Members of Committee together for a BOR. Now, granted, if I was a CC I'd also not be scheduling BORs during Memorial Day weekend in the first place. I think there are some questions to be asked of Troop leadership, and to be batted around with other commish.

[acco40]

Other Committee Members weren't available to serve at the BOR at the time it needed to be scheduled.

 

Needed to be scheduled? A good learning experience for the Scout is to see what happens when he butts up against "deadlines."

 

I have approximately 30 engineers who report to me and the fact that a proposal is due on June 12th doesn't mean that they have until the 11th to conclude their analysis. With red team reviews, blue team reviews, gold teams reviews, configuration management, etc. they have to get used to the fact that their work needs to be completed two to three weeks prior to proposal submission.

 

If these engineers were Scouts and were not pandered to by adults who thought they "needed" to have a BOR complete because a COH was coming up, they may have learned a valuable lesson.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[SeattlePioneer]

Well, we had a very nice BOR for a well qualified Star Scout who is advancing to Life today. Three unit leaders plus myself.

 

The unit Advancement chair was very well organized and with a lot of experience in the job. Also he is an Assistant Scoutmaster. I made no comment on that.

 

I used several of Lisabobs questions, which I thought were excellent. Thank you!

 

This Scout will be 17 in August. He has quite a lot of work to do to complete Eagle by the time he is 18. He has two older brothers who Eagled.

 

I thought he would do well to find an adult coach to help guide him through the Eagle hurdles and keep him focused on the various tasks that need to get done. Do any units encourage that kind of support?

 

Anyway, this was a good experience for me. I'm invited/planning to attend the Troop Committee meeting which will be in another ten days to get a feel for for the Troop Committee is working.

[Lisabob]

"I thought he would do well to find an adult coach to help guide him through the Eagle hurdles and keep him focused on the various tasks that need to get done. Do any units encourage that kind of support? "

 

Yes, my son's troop does that. I thought it was a regular part of the new process? It can be really helpful for the boys to have someone other than mom & dad to turn to when they're in the weeds - and that someone may be able to push them in ways that don't always work for parents. It is part of the "adult association" method working at its best.

 

Glad to hear the BOR went well.

 

 

[Scoutfish]

"Anyway, this was a good experience for me. I'm invited/planning to attend the Troop Committee meeting which will be in another ten days to get a feel for for the Troop Committee is working."

 

AWESOME!

 

Glad you enjoyed the experience.

 

You ever take a class that you really didn't need to, just for the sake of learning something new?

 

I have!

 

You ever ask a question about a process, why something got started, or what a piece of equipment was - just for no other reason than being curious?

 

I have.

 

Knowledge is awesome. There is no such thing as being too learned or too smart.

 

I was part of a mock EBoR a week ago. I don't know who learned more - the Eagle candidate or me. Still have 3 pages of questions that the AV wrote up that cover every aspect of what could be asked of the scout concerning his entire scouting lifetime.

 

I have been asked if I would like to observe a EBoR ( scout from another unit in our district) in about 2 months.

 

I have asked the SM if I could sit in on a few SM conferences as an observer.

 

I want to sit in on thse so that I can get a better understanding of what goes on and where the scout should be when it is time for him to be at a BoR or EBoR.

 

If it helps me do my job better, then it will also helpo the scout be better at some point , in some way.

I said yes, I absolutely would like to se it.

 

As a bonus, you do have a better working knowledge of a uniot that you are there to support. THis is a great thing as you may notice things when they are starting to go foul instead of waiting for a unit to realize it ( often after alot of damage has been done) .

 

And isn't that what we do with the scouts?

 

WE offer suggestions and advice to keep them straight on track?

 

WE don't wait til they are crashing to start helping out. WE are proactive about it. We try to help before issues and trouble start.

 

Looks like ( to me) that if you have a good understanding of what and how a unit is operating, you might be able to do the same thing.

 

It is possible to be familiar with a unit and/or people without being too personally involved so that you can't be objective.

[Basementdweller]

So the young man is up against a time deadline......

 

 

So how do you help guide young men to prevent this situation???

[lrsap]

Forgive me if I missed it, but there are a few questions I have about making sure it's done before COH.

 

Is it the scout that is wanting to make sure it's done in time for COH or the adults?

 

In this specific troop, is rank awarding withheld until a COH and not upon being earned?

 

Maybe I should have just spun a new thread, but only awarding rank at COH can lead to another whole host of problems. Merit Badges are one thing, a FC wearing a TF for 3,6 or 12 months is another.

[NACAP]

Seattle: If they had 3 ULs there (which I hope were Comm Mbrs and not ASMs) why did they need you? The non-CM rule is not for convenience but for the necessary reason I listed earlier.

 

When you go to the Comm Meeting, no need to be confrontational but take along the Guide to Advancement and have them look over Chap 3 AC responsibility, 4 Active/POR guidance, 7 MB info, 8 BOR rules, 9 Eagle rules. I think the "experienced" Advancement Chair and the whole committee need to get up to speed on the rules.

 

The Eagle Coach question/solution is in chapter 9.

 

For Scoutfish: Mock EBORs are neither required or desired by the BSA.

[NJCubScouter]

NACAP,

 

You are clearly correct that a "mock EBOR" is not required, but where does it say they are "not desired?" (Which I interpret to mean that the BSA "desires" that it NOT be done.)

 

Personally I do not see the need for one. Presumably the Eagle candidate has a general idea what a BOR is like, having been through five of them already, although I understand that the EBOR is generally longer and more of a "big deal." I believe that our SM covers "what to expect in the Eagle BOR" in the SM Conference for Eagle. But if a troop wants to take it a step beyond that and actually have a mock BOR, I see nothing wrong with it. (By the way, since you are fairly new around here, I guess I should mention that my account-name is somewhat out-of-date, I have been a Troop Committee member for a number of years and am currently a troop advancement coordinator. I acknowledge that I don't yet know everything, though. )

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello NACAP,

 

 

There were three adults plus myself whop formed the BOR. One of those adults was a half hour late and apparently hadn't been able to commit to attending the BOR.

 

My ability to commit to being there made it practical to schedule the meeting, I suppose.

 

The Advancement Chair/Assistant Scoutmaster had a copy of the advancement rules, and was well prepared for the meeting. I don't doubt he was aware the Assistant Scoutmasters aren't supposed to serve on a BOR.

 

You have to understand I've just been appointed as the UC, and this unit tends to have leaders who are suspicious of the district and council.

 

Our District Advancement Chair has made an effort to sell use of the on line advancement reporting, and I made an effort to sell that to the Troop Advancement Chair, who was distinctly not sold on that as a practice. He had a 1" thick collection of paper advancement reports and prefers to rely on his own documentation of advancement by the council.

 

That probably makes sense for someone who is well organized and good at record keeping. The council and national aren't anything to write home about in that regard.

 

 

So anyway, having lost in one effort to promote recommended practices, I wasn't going to pick another fight. Not that time, anyway.

 

 

>

 

 

Thank you --- I'll read up on that.

[NACAP]

NJ: How about:

 

Policy on Unauthorized Changes to Advancement Program

No council, committee, district, unit, or individual has the authority to

add to, or subtract from, advancement requirements

 

Making a scout go through a Mock EBOR is adding to the requirements and therefore not allowed.

[NJCubScouter]

NACAP,

 

Until now, nobody said anything about "making" a Scout go through a mock EBOR. Scoutfish only said he attended one, he didn't say it was required of the Scout (nor did he said it was not required.) You are correct that it could not be required, it could only be offered as an option. I can tell you that if my son had been offered the opportunity to have a "mock" (perhaps it would be better to call it a "practice") EBOR, I would have encouraged him to do it. (Although I am told he did fine in his real EBOR, without any formal "practice.")

[NJCubScouter]

I also understand SP's reluctance to tackle everything he sees being done "wrong" all at once. When I became advancement chair/coordinator of my troop, I was aware (since I had served on a number of BOR's previously) of several things that we were doing that weren't "by the book," and were instead following "troop tradition." I saw no need to antagonize everybody by playing the "new sheriff in town" and trying to change everything all at once. I gradually started steering us more and more toward the book, and doing what was necessary to accomplish that (recruiting new committee/BOR members, for one). I can't say we are all the way there yet, but we are much closer. So I am sure that UC SP will get the ASM's out of the BOR-room soon enough, just give him time and let him prioritize the issues to fit the local circumstances. I think sometimes people in this forum who come from those "perfect troops" need to remember that those of us who don't have other people to deal with in our units, and that is magnified with a UC, who is basically a visitor.