Board of Review

[Second Class]

My troop makes an effort to have "outsiders" sit on our BOR's. They have a different take on things and can often ask good questions. We are proud of our program and want others to see it. We don't view "outsiders" as a bad thing. We are not cloistered and want our scouts to be able to speak and converse with adults of all positions.

This is a great opportunity to do this.

 

[NACAP]

This subject has recently been on the BSA Advancement Twitter Account:

 

BSA Advancement Team ‏@AdvBSA

Using unregistered adults for non-Eagle BORs is the exception not the rule. If you have MCs schedule BORs when/where they can attend.

 

BSA Advancement Team ‏@AdvBSA

The alternative of using unregistered adults for non-Eagle BORs does not mean "grab any parent if an MC doesn't happen to show up."

 

AND in the Ask Andy Issue 309 May 18th:

 

http://netcommissioner.com/askandy/2012/05/issue-309-may-18-2012/

 

Here's the reasoning where you may use non committee members...

 

Troop has minimum to qualify as a unit....5 scouts, 1 CC/COR, 2 CM, a SM and and ASM. Scout A is son of a CM so you need a 3rd for a BOR so it would be acceptable to find another adult or even a SM or ASM from another troop to serve. Scout B could have Mom and Dad as CMs so you would need 2 others

[moosetracker]

unregistered adult makes it sound like using people who don't understand the scouting program.. And the outsider is because you are desperate to wrangle up 3 people..

 

As far as I'm concerned if you can use 3 Committee members, and want to invite a fourth outsider who most likely will have some knowledge of scouting, even possibly from a different troop, or a District member.. Then I see no reason why this can't be something the troop says, thanks for the recommended procedures, but for our troop we think we improve our program doing our own thing..

[SeattlePioneer]

Hello NACAP,

 

 

Thanks for your post, which provides convincing support for the idea that Committee Members have the primary responsibility for conducting Boards of Review.

 

I'll still do the one scheduled for tomorrow, but I'll keep that in mind for future reference.

 

 

Thanks!

[Lisabob]

Having an outsider on the BOR isn't the worst idea I've ever heard, particularly for higher ranks.

 

What I believe people here are saying (and where I agree) is that the UC probably ought to avoid sitting on boards for the unit he or she serves, because it could create uncomfortable conflicts of interest. What would happen if the UC is the lone dissenting voice on the board? What if the UC learns, while on the board, that the troop is doing some very strange things? Will the UC be in a position to take off his or her "UC hat" and put on a "board hat" or vice versa? Would the SM and CC feel it was "ok" for you to bring up some issue that you discovered while serving on a BOR for them? Is it worth the potential conflicts that could result, if this became a more regular practice?

 

SP, you know your units better than any of us could, so you'll make these decisions on your own. And I only see people recommending careful thought - not outright prohibition.

[Basementdweller]

Lisa.....so explain to me why having an outsider evaluate a scout during the higher ranks is a bad idea???

[moosetracker]

Possibly.. and it might be my still trying to grasp what a UC does, but I still don't see it..

 

So it is a problem scout, that the committee is planning to fail? Would this be a board they would invite an outsider to sit on? If they did, would they do so without indicating to the unsuspecting UC that they were planning to fail the scout? They definately would not ask the guest board member to take the lead in the rejection!

 

So the scout comes in, doesn't know scout oath, law, his troop number or his own name. A UC or really any outsider who is not rude and dominering is going to act like a guest and follow the lead of the true committee members. Do they stop the Board and request that the scout return the next week, or pass him anyway? A guest simply isn't going to be the one person insisting the scout not pass. Maybe at a later date, he might bring up the need to teach the scouts the scout oath & law, but from what I understand, all they can do is suggest. If the troop leaders don't want to listen so be it.

 

So the board turns into a inquisition, with difficult questions.. The UC may not join in the torture.. So what would a UC do if visiting a Pack Meeting and the Cub Master is flipping Scouts upside down to pin their new badge on them? So what would happen if a UC visited a troop during a camporee and noticed the scouts fighting with no adult leader (SPL,ASPL,PL) interfering.. Truely I don't know what a UC would do, but thing is they could witness the unit doing something wrong with anything they visit, so what is different about a BOR? I know the UC is not to interfer, so I would imagine they do not have the right to stop the BOR, Pack meeting, or interfer in the way the troop handles the fight.. But, would raise concern later.. Again the Adult Leaders will decide if they want to pay attention or not.

 

From what I know all a UC has over any outsider is to make mention of his concern about an action of the troops.. But the troop has the right to pay attention to the advise or not.. They may make mention of it to the Distict Commissioner, but from what I have seen they may make note that the troop may have future problems, but they will not get involved either. Well a committee Member who witnesses any of this and has concerns can themselves bring up those concerns at a committee meeting.. If they think it is serious enough and the troop is not dealling with it, believe me, many will make mention of it to the District Executive if they go to Round Table.. I know ours gets to hear alot of horror stories from concerned Adult leaders.

 

One last thing. So what would happen if during the Board Meeting the scout states the SM came into his tent and fondled him?? Well what should each and every board member do?? What is every board members responsibility if this occurs?..

 

Seriously, should a UC never visit their units during anything, for fear that they might see something, they might need to give friendly advise on a change to the program?.. Because what the witness at a BOR would not be any more then what they might witness with whatever else they attend. In a BOR they should still remember they are a visitor and not an Adult Leader of the troop as with any other thing they visit or observe with the troop...

 

 

[Scoutfish]

So from Seattle's post, we can gather this bit of info:

 

As far as we know, there could be a committe of 50 people in the troop, but due to conflicts of scheduling, or other unforseen events, only two committee members are available to do the Life BOR.

 

It might even be that there are 4 committee members, of which two of them could be the scout's parents - so again, that leaves only two qualified committee members able to run the BoR.

 

So, being in a bind, they ask Seattle to sit in as the 3rd member of the Bor.

 

Scout is not only not friends with Seattle, but they are not even familiar with each other.

 

I see no problem nor do I see any conflict.

 

It is only pure unfounded speculation on our part to assume that Seattle will suddenly sit on or start running every BOoR for this unit.

 

From my perspective, it's a one time deal that is being done out of necessity more than anything else.

 

But on the bonus side, this does give Seattle an inside look of a unit that he happens to be a commissioner to. Nice way to get more familiar with a unit that you are there to help when they need it.

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

I think that based on Moose's last post, maybe it wouln't be such a bad idea for unit commissioners to sit in on BoR's every now and then.

 

Not as a member of the Bor, but as a witnes from the back of the room...for many of the reasons that Moose brought up.

 

What if the Bor does in fact add to requirements?

 

What if they were going to fail the scout's BoR because he did not fulfill an added requirement?

 

What if they skimmed over or even dropped some requirements for the scouit to pass the BOR.

 

I am not saying the UC should interrupt or bring up the issues at the BOR, but afteward or even during a UC/Unit meeting at a different time and date .

 

Think about it: Units could be going down the wrong path or just starting their journey to impoding and failure.

 

Why wait til the ship is half submerged to offer help when you could stop the leak while it is still just a trickle?

 

Again, not saying Seattle should stand up in the midle of the BoR and say" HEY! You are doing this all wrong!"

 

But this is a rare and and awesome oppertunity for a UC to see exactly how the unbit runs on a basic level.

 

 

[Basementdweller]

Moose.....

 

I was wondering what games were being played on the Adult side as well.....

[lrsap]

We had an OA election and BOR on the same night recently, and the OA Advisor that is a great friend of the troop was asked if he would like to join as a guest. Not only did he say he was honored to do so, the other BOR members expressed how much they appreciated him being there and the experience he added to the proceedings, given that we are fairly inexperienced in our new troop.

 

Now, if you are conducting a BOR for a scout that may in any way be questionable my opinion could be different. But I think a the right guest every now and then adds something special.

[johnponz]

Where is the ADC or DC in this? SP did you ask them if they thought this was a good idea before agreeing to it? This is definitely a question where their involvement is called for.

 

You could have easily told the CC that you would be glad to do this, but the DC did not think it was a good idea. That would have taken any pressure you felt off of you. This is what bosses ar for in the real world and in the BSA.

(This message has been edited by johnponz)

[Lisabob]

Um, basement, read what I wrote. I don't think having an outsider on a board for the higher ranks is a terrible idea (although, except for Eagle, it isn't standard).

 

I do think having the UC on the board sets up a situation where the UC may get into a messy conflict of interests. The UC isn't just any "outsider" and the UC must be able to be an impartial "friend to the unit." I think that might be hard, if the UC is also de facto part of the unit, serving on BORs, etc. However, that's a line that SP will have to figure out by himself. And it is apparent to me (from other posts) that, in general, SP's style of being a UC is much more hands on than mine might be.

 

 

[moosetracker]

Also just to clarify, always inviting the same outsider to become a regular on your board, is not the benifit of asking for the occasional ousider to sit in.. If you don't ask different outsiders to sit in, then there is no benefit to it. The scouts get use to them being on the board, the real committee members don't learn something new, he just becomes a regular, although not really a committee member.

 

So I do see a point to makeing some outside person a regualer member of your board.. I just don't see an issue with inviting a guest board member who you have never had sit in before. I also don't see the harm when you do have a small committee, and may run into being short a committee member asking for a non-committee member to fill in, even if they have sat on the board in the past. At that point it is not to learn from one another, and breath new life into the same-old, same-old.. It is to help you out in a jam.

[johnponz]

I go back to my point. Why is SP asking a bunch of people on a furum what he should do? He should be asking his DC or ADC.