Merit Badge Question

[fred8033]

Swimming MB - "barely passing the swim test" - Ummm... I'd counsel and discuss it with him. Then I'd encourage and wish him the best. Isn't that the purpose of a MB? To learn and develop a skill? Seems totally appropriate to work on the swimming badge to become a better swimmer. Part of my counsel would be managing and measuring success. For him, success might not be leaving summer camp with a MB. It might be for him becoming a better swimmer. It might also be that he'll have to work harder than some of the other scouts and to not feel bad if others are ahead of him.

 

We've had several scouts do both lifesaving and swimming at camp. Our advice was that they might want to be out of the water part of their day. But it was their choice. The main concern was if the classes met at the same time.

 

Pioneering MB is a great way to develop T21 skills. Apply BSA's nonsensical statement. "Any scout can work on any MB with scoutmaster approval." If BSA had an issue with it, a Pioneering MB requirement would be that the scout first be 1st class.

 

...

 

I'm looking back at my previous message. I should probably apologize for being a bit harsh. My dandruff was up over a different post.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[Eagle92]

Fred,

 

Again you gotta know your scouts. I would not let a 10 yo new cross over who barely passed the swim test take Swimming MB when I know that he is not emotionally capable of accepting failure yet, i.e. evidence by meltdowns not being able to do new skills immediately (I know that's another issue). And you are using your expereince as a swimming and lifeguard instructor, as well as Swimming and Lifesaving MBC, to evaluate his skills and chance of completing the MB.

 

As for the swimming and lifesaving together comment, you are right I know of scouts who have done both, usually in the 15-17 yo range. So I should clarify: I would NOT let a YOUNGER scout take both swimming and lifesaving MBs during the same week of camp. With one exception, a swim team member who is use to hours of non-stop practice in the pool.

 

Again I am using my experiences as swimming and life guard instructor and my knowledge of the scouts to base the decision.

 

EDITED: Fred, No worries as you are looking out for your scouts, and that is a good thing!

 

Also didn't answer the pioneering comment.

 

Again knowing your scouts is the key. If a scout is having problems with basic pioneering/marlinspike work, and is having emotional meltdowns, you got to get them to focus on the basics and get them to the point where they know that stuff, before they can start work on pioneering projects.

 

I'll give you an example. Prior to the ban on pioneering projects over 5 feet without a harness, helmet, and belay lines, my troop built a Bosun's Chair for scout shows: 15-25' high tripod tower on one side and a 25-30' tripod tower on the other. A cable was connected betweenthe two towers and a chair on a rosa gold was attached to it. IT WAS A RUSH! and we had a 30 minute wait for folks to ride it.

 

Now we as a troop would go over all that stuff and practice building smaller towers at meeting about 4-8 weeks prior. Everyone got a chance to work on the patrol towers during the meetings, and they were only about 5 feet or so high.

 

Well one year we had an 11 or 12yo join our troop and the first meeting was practice for scout show. He was having a very difficult time learning the knots, and the lashings were just as difficult. We worked and worked and worked with him, but he could not do the lashings correctly. And we told he needed to get it right before we let him do lashings on the tower.

 

Well he gets very upset, making a scene etc. Tried to explain the safety reasons why we needed very good lashings on the tower, that everyone had roles to play at the scout show, and that it was fun to see the different booths. Well he didn't listen and we never saw him again.

 

So that's why I like to avoid the breakdowns: if kids have fun they stay active and learn.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

[Beavah]

Yah, what Eagle92 said, eh?

 

I think you're takin' one sentence out of context as a "key guiding statement", fred8033. Sometimes it is true that those with experience should re-think things, I'll grant. Yeh do occasionally see scouters like what you are talkin' about, who are too adult-run and get in boys' way.

 

Lots of times, though, it takes experience to be able to understand, interpret, or apply written advice as well. That's why at many BSA camps you'll see age, rank, or other restrictions on some merit badges, limits on slots available, etc. When the rubber meets the road, we don't really mean that any boy can do any MB program any time he wants. Individual characteristics of the boy, safety issues, courtesy issues, da restrictions placed by outside outfitters providin' instruction and more are all part of da equation.

 

B

 

[fred8033]

Beavah - I think your using edge examples to over emphasize the SM signature.

 

courtesy issues - To me that's a membership issue, not a MB issue. A scout won't get far in anything if he can't work with others. If he won't ask me politely, then I won't sign. Of course. If I think he'll be rude to others, then I'll be talking with him about his future in scouts. But it won't be caused by his asking for MB card.

 

Safety issues - of course ... if they really exist ... The only one I've seen is swimming which is the pre-requisite of the water related badges. The SM should council the scout. But if the scout thinks he can get it done for the badge, great. I'd also check with the MBC that the MBC will be doing a swim test and make sure we're on the same page. It's the job of the MBC to confirm requirements, not the SM. SM approval is in no way an indication that any badge requirement is complete. Heck, I'd even do that if I thought the scout could swim. I expect MBC for water related badges to make sure the scout passes the MB requirements for swimming.

 

external restrictions - option, find another MBC or let the scout find another MBC. That happens. If you can't find another MBC, then the scout's out of luck. But that's not a SM disapproving the badge.

 

camp restrictions for numbers - Then those restrictions are from the camp, not the SM. We've also asked about those limits in the past. If they are not overwhelmved with too many scouts, they've let our scouts in when we ask. The only one at our camp is First Aid MB. They'd get half the camp every year. But other badges like shutgun prioritize the available slots by age and rank and don't list a pre-requisite. Sometimes we don't even get 14 year old star scouts in because of too many scouts. But that's the camp restriction, not the SM.

 

camp restrictions for ability - See safety above.

 

...

 

While there are probably extreme cases that might cause a SM to say no, I haven't seen any. In my eight years, I've never seen our SM say no. Sometimes the SM has let the scout know he didn't get in because they had too many scouts or had established limits. But it wasn't the SM saying no.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[Beavah]

Beavah - I think your using edge examples to over emphasize the SM signature.

 

Yah, perhaps, though I have in fact seen all of those edge cases. I'm not sayin' they're common, though. The vast majority of MB work requests get approved by the SM without a hitch. But every few hundred badges or so, yeh get a situation or a lad (or a parent) that needs special handling, and special handlin' is just fine, and perfectly consistent with da guidelines:

 

Though a few merit badges may have certain restrictions; short of them, any registered Scout may work on any of them at any time, as long as he has the approval of his unit leader. This is indicated by his or her signature on the Application for Merit Badge, No. 34124, commonly called the blue card. (7.0.0.2, Guide to Advancement, emphasis mine)

 

So the actual "key guiding statement" that yeh were referring to in the guide actually says exactly what Eagle92 and I are sayin', eh? Not that it matters in particular; yeh should do what yeh think is right for your boys and your CO in any event.

 

And you're right, eh? That sort of thing should be rare. To my mind da most common and perhaps best use of the discretion is for a SM to not grant approval for poorly run MB Fairs.

 

Beavah

 

[fred8033]

My gosh. This feels so wrong. Are we reaching some sort of agreement?

 

I'd be okay with a SM not approving if the desired MBC historically does a bad job or has some other issue. Same with MB fairs though I've not seen one that does that bad a job. If anything, I've seen the opposite.

[acco40]

I'm in the same camp as Fred. The only time I've refused to allow the Scout to take a merit badge, by not giving him MBC contact information, is if for example he wanted to take Lifesaving but had not earned the swimming merit badge.

 

I've suggested to a handful of scouts (for example a newly crossed over 10 year old who wanted to take the Engineering Merit Badge) that possibly it was not the correct time. But hey, if he was adamant with pursuing it, I'd support that decision.

[Beavah]

My gosh. This feels so wrong. Are we reaching some sort of agreement?

 

Well, we could start callin' each other names or start criticizin' each other's conversational style if yeh like.

 

Yah, I think we're in essential agreement. I'd certainly agree with acco40 as well. Mostly, yeh just say "sure thing!" and point 'em in the right direction. Occasionally, yeh counsel 'em toward somethin' else for one reason or another, or yeh say, "Sure, but not at the MB Fair, I'll find yeh a better counselor." Very rarely, yeh say some version of "no, not yet."

 

B