Failed Life BoR

[moosetracker]

Well if Beavah view of a UC is right, then it helps me decide on my wanting to commit to being a UC of a unit that is about to be a train wreak without some strong guidence now.. Basically don't do it.. If you can't give strong guidence during a time they need it, but the long term goal plan means they will crash and burn before ever implimenting long term subtle intervention.. May as well let them crash and burn, without standing anywhere near the fall out.

 

I always thought UC had to guide, but they could strongly guide during time of crisis.. It is just if no one cares to listen, they you let them go to their dismal doom, while writing in your little book "Hey I tried, I suggested A, B, C.. No one listened.. May they rest in peace.."

 

 

[Beavah]

Guidin' through a crisis takes an even more gentle hand, eh? And it's definitely not somethin' yeh can do if yeh know and have affinity for one of the players as in this case. I'd suggest that if yeh really feel that as a commish you can come in on a white steed to set things to rights then you're right, eh? The Commissioner Corps is not the place for yeh. You'll do a great deal of harm.

 

Once again, based on da third-hand report of what a boy told his dad who told dfolson, we as a community are makin' recommendations that would destroy a troop. "If all else fails, offer to help the Scout, and any other Scout who wants to leave this troop find a new one." I'm not sure why we get such self-righteous glee over that.

 

If yeh want to help a program, especially a program in crisis, yeh begin by understandin' the people and their motivations. People in scouting are good folks, and they are doin' their best. Yah, yah, sometimes they get a bit odd when they're talkin' about their own kid, but once yeh get away from the parental instinct stuff they're all worth spendin' time with.

 

To fight fires, yeh pour on water, eh? Yeh don't respond with fire of your own. To fight human fires yeh don't take sides, yeh appeal to the common purpose and common interest in which we are all engaged.

 

Beavah

 

 

 

[dfolson]

Beavah, So having been the UC for the Troop for the last 3 years, I have gotten to know most of the boys. It is a small Troop and one of the things I have been trying to help with is coaching them on recruiting. Is that really being too involved as a UC?

 

moosetracker, Thank you. That was where I was - watching the train wreck coming and trying to fiigure out which siding to shunt the cars to.

 

I also wanted a sounding board to see if I was the only one that felt the result of the BOR was a lot of HORSEHOCKEY

[Beavah]

Hiya, dfolson.

 

You'll note that moosetracker is not and has never been a unit commissioner, where some of us old furry critters have served on the commissioner corps at the district and council level for quite a good number of years, eh?

 

Be cautious about seekin' out internet advice and takin' only the advice that supports your own sense of pride.

 

You're too close to this, mate. Whether or not the BOR was "horsehockey" is irrelevant. The issue right now for you is that your current approach as a unit commissioner is completely off-base. Step away. Go sit for coffee with your ADC and DC. Yeh can't take sides and remain a commish.

 

Beavah

 

[Stosh]

Sounds like the Board was not going to accept the approved advancement. The SM signed off on his POR, his Scout Spirit was okay, and the Board is flat out - adding to the requirements and questioning the integrity of the SM and his ability to determine whether or not a requirement is fulfilled. The only responsibility the Board has is to REVIEW the rank advancement, not judge anything. And how would anyone on the Board even know if the store room was messy unless they were meddling in an area they shouldn't have been in the first place?

 

Stosh

[moosetracker]

Beavah wrote : Guidin' through a crisis takes an even more gentle hand, eh? And it's definitely not somethin' yeh can do if yeh know and have affinity for one of the players as in this case. I'd suggest that if yeh really feel that as a commish you can come in on a white steed to set things to rights then you're right, eh? The Commissioner Corps is not the place for yeh. You'll do a great deal of harm.

 

I take this comment was for me..

 

Actually I think the Troop is doomed, but the Pack is in trouble, yet has enough involved Adults who want to turn it around. I more see trying to help grow the pack, when the troop fails, if we can get a strong Pack we can rebuild from that.. So, I was more of the opinion of just writing up.. "I tried A, B, C... They didn't pay attention.. May they rest in peace..".

 

I just don't want to state they failed and I ignored them and let them fail.. I would like to state on the record I tried, but, I already know they will ignore anything I say. Yet you are stating I can't even guide to deaf ears, so that I can cover my own ass when they fail.

 

This is the Troop my son attempted to be SM of. They didn't want him as he would not be a push-over. They talked someone else into the position who knew nothing.. Now I hear, after a month of being SM, he is only going to be SM to the end of the school year, and then plans to be an adult leader for the Pack. I guess he didn't know how to fight them, but was not going to be their puppet either, so he chose to walk.

 

From what I can see the Pack has slight hope. Not many kids but for a single large Webelos group and a trickle of onesy/ twosy other people.. But, I think with the current CM, the Webelos leader and the newly resigned after 1 month in office ex-SM.. We will have enough interested Adult Leadership that is truely interested in change and improving the Pack to try to improve on it's numbers.

 

 

edited to add: Beavah is correct. I am not a UC, and that was one of the first things I stated.. All I know is you are their to guide, but you can not run the show or make decisions.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[SeattlePioneer]

When a SM fails to approve a Scout for advancement, the advice on this board is usually that he made a mistake and that such things are the province of the BOR.

 

Now we have a Scoutmaster approving a Scout for advancement, and the prevailing opinion is that the BOR lacked authority to withhold approval.

 

As a UC, I wouldn't try to mediate the dispute directly. It should be resolved by the SM, CC, Scout and parents acting in their various capacities.

 

Too bad the COH is so soon, it scarcely allows time for any deliberative or corrective actions.

 

I think I'd advise the parents to consult with the SM first, and then the CC. The CC should be in a position to schedule another BOR in another month or so.

 

In the meantime, the SM and CC can investigate the issues raised by the BOR, which may be the real reasons or perhaps there are other issues. One those issues have been explored and the powers of a BOR discussed as needed, it would be time for the CC to schedule another BOR with the same committee or another committee that might seem to be appropriate.

 

The SM would be the best person to counsel the Scout in the issues at hand, and explain that unexpected things can happen in life, and that when they do you find ways to deal with those realities. A Life Scout should have the intestinal fortitude to understand that and to persevere.

 

I don't see why this should be a huge issue. It's one of those problems that can crop up and needs to be dealt with.

[moosetracker]

SP.. I have not gotten that opinion on this board.. From what I get from the board, the SM has the right to remove a scout from position when he is not doing the job to end the POR time table. The SM can also refuse to sign scout spirit.. He may also refuse a SM conference (but many state the time he took to say he refuses the SM conference is then the conference, so the conference is then done..)

 

 

The committee has to ask weak, scout friendly questions like "do you like Scouting?" "What would you change in the troop?" etc.. Can ask some light questions about the rank, as long as it is not seen as testing the knowledge so you can ask "What was your favorite merit badge? What did you cook, when you had to be the Patrol cook?.. What was your favorite outing?..

 

The only way they can fail a scout, is if he is so nervous he can't answer the easiest of questions.. Some even state a lack of uniform is not a reason to postpone the board..

 

Really Advancement has gotten watered down, to it is very very hard to re-adjust a luke-warm, barely breathing scout, from just going through half hearted motions for an Eagle rank..

 

You can't do it at the SM level, or the BOR, or the Eagle project. Although I do agree some people set the bar way too hard and discouraged boys from even trying. I think we have gone to the other extreme and the bar is way too low. You barely need to lift your foot to walk over it.

 

But, it is what it is..

[Beavah]

But, it is what it is..

 

Nah, it is what we've made it.

 

Plenty of units do a fine job of settin' high standards, and the national materials support that just as much if not more than the other approach.

 

Yeh just have to care enough to do it, eh? That means occasionally sayin' "no" and gettin' grief for it, and soldierin' on patiently like any good umpire or referee. Honestly, it's not that hard, it's just a little hard.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

SP,

 

YOu may want to reread my post. I said the BOR MAY have a case in regards to the cleanign and organizing gear. BUT as the Scout does need guidance on the issue BEFORE the time is completed or removed.

 

If that was the basis alone for the denial, Yes I would want details on how it was presented to the scout prior to him completing the time in the POR. If he was advised, then yes rejection is appropriate WITH a written plan to fix the problem, i.e. get the gear clean and organized ASAP in order to compelte the task and get the BOR.

 

BUT saying he needs to organize events and activities, that is the purveiw of the SPL and PLs, not the QM or Librarian.

 

IMHO that's adding to requirements #1.

 

Also if memory serves, G2A states a written procees needs to be done so that the Scout can fix things ASAP. making him wait 5 months for a continuation of the BOR is also Adding to requirements IMHO.

 

I think the last two items are what most folks are heated about. And while the SM is happy, if the committee did advise him and told him, then some work may, stress MAY, need to be done.

 

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY ( emphasis folks) is that the SM, CC, and the committee need to talk about the matter and get on the same page.

 

 

[moosetracker]

Yes, but the "No" has to come before the POR is completed, or before the rank requirement or MB requirement or blue card is signed off etc.. Once done, if done wrong, you can not take it back..

 

If your scout want to get all their MB's signed off in 2 MB workshops in a span of maybe 16 hours over a two day period, with no regard to 3 month charting or any other time consuming difficult requirement, it is done.. Last I heard, doesn't matter that the SM signed his approval or not, as long as the MBC is signed it's a done deal.

 

The best you can do at that point is show the scout the door, and tell them to find a troop that will honor that type of advancement.

 

Just a little while ago we had people telling us that our EBOR, shouldn't visit Eagle projects, and shouldn't get involved when it was learned a scout was going to do his project with his mom and one man who had professional skills for the construction they were building, while the scout had none and was just going to follow instruction.. Not the EBOR's place to get involved.. Just pass them through, so what if they are not worthy, you have plenty of scouts not worthy of Eagle, so why worry or get involved or stop this scout from cheating the system to get the patch.. That was the message sent out from this board.

[5yearscouter]

Let's see, as UC I would see that you know of this issue from the parent.

So I would offer up the advice that the scout could appeal to the district/council for the BOR. I haven't ever had to do that, but it is listed in the guide to Advancement.

I would caution the scout/family that this may slam a bunch of doors as the whole troop adult leaders may then start to believe he was a trouble maker.

 

Then I would contact the SM and the CC and suggest a sit down to discuss the issue. I would provide them guidance and point them toward training for how a BOR should progress. I might suggest they involve the COR if they are not in agreement, but I would not contact the COR myself. I would suggest strongly that they review with everyone in their unit who sits on BOR the newest spelled out info in the Guide to advancement and the training for BOR's and suggest that they review whether everything they questioned in the COR for this scout was following those guidelines. And if not that they rethink the decision of the BOR, and go for a redo.

 

I would talk and I would listen and I would make suggestions.

But it is not my job to fix the problem for them. If they aren't sure how to proceed next I might help them brainstorm options.

[qwazse]

Three years in and the BOR is acting as if it is untrained? There's more here than meets the eye!

 

I think in this framework the UC should point out to the adults that a disagreement between SM and BOR of this magnitude indicates different philosophies that need to be hashed out. Then leave the room maybe leaving behind the date and time of the next training! The SM and CC and share their interpretations of the advancement guide without your intervention.

 

Don't sweat the CoH. Not every award has to be handed out then. SM can encourage folks to offer a follow-up BOR sooner than scheduled, and the rank awarded at the following troop meeting.

[frankpalazzi]

These committee members who failed this boy are obviously not trained. If the CC is not on board with the SM, then why NOT involve the COR? The COR can lay down the law on this matter: no boards will be held until the committee has completed/retaken Troop Committee Challenge, Scoutmaster Fundamentals, and New Leader Essentials. This is what I'd do as COR, and no foolin' around. Want sugar-coated? Buy a donut. Want a song and dance? Buy a theater ticket. I'd shoot straight from the hip and unconditionally on this one.

[DLChris71]

There but for the grace of God, go I.

 

I'd hate to be 13 yo and have that happen to me, especially if he did 13 months of POR.