First class in first year - or not

[Tampa Turtle]

Yes the grubmaster/cooking requirements slow some boys up. Especially when you do single age patrols and everyone needs it.

 

One year we had cooking "triads" of 3 boys each rotating duties. I didn't like that approach. Cook as a Patrol, eat as a Patrol.

 

In mixed age Patrols the older boys get tired of doing grubmaster so the younger guys get a shot and feel like they are contributing more. One issue we have is portions--some campouts a little guy (mostly likely his mother)portioned for all little guys and the older scouts were complaining they didn't get enough to eat.

[Beavah]

I don't think this is that hard. All it takes is some thought. For example, the boys pick a canoe trip...That forces manditory swim tests and safety afloat for all. (FC req). Boys pick a hiking trip, give them the map, walk with that patrol and let them get a little lost.

 

Hiya CricketEagle.

 

I think what you're describing is what I would call once-and-done. I could be wrong, but if yeh only have one canoe trip, then I expect the lads only have one real exposure to the 9 points of Safety Afloat. Yeh have one hiking trip, so they get to hike with a map and get a little lost once.

 

I think it takes more than one exposure to learn what the points of Safety Afloat really look like and mean. I doubt that your boys who get signed off for First Class can plan and run a canoe trip as a Star Scout servin' in a POR. But that's the point of Safety Afloat, eh? We teach Safety Afloat to youth and adults so that they can plan and run water trips.

 

I think it takes more than one exposure to learn map navigation skills or what to do when lost. I'm skeptical that the boys you describe could really do a 5-mile on- and off- trail hike doing their own navigation without help after that one hike.

 

Once-and-done shortchanges kids on the real experience of scouting to my mind. In some cases, like teachin' water rescue skills for Second Class, once-and-done is a bit dangerous, eh?

 

This to my mind is da problem with FCFY. The test, which is Step 2 of advancement, is the boy doin' his own plan and navigation for a 5 mile hike. The test is done once. But Step 1 of advancement, A Scout Learns, takes a whole bunch of exposure and practice and activity before yeh ever get to the test.

 

So a lad should have several canoe trips under his belt where he watches, learns, and applies Safety Afloat before he's ready for the canoe trip on which he is tested. He should have a bunch of hikes and map reading and navigation under his belt before he's ready to plan and navigate his own hike as a test. He should have a bunch of times out learning and practicing water rescue methods and makin' go / no-go decisions before yeh pop a test on him during an outing.

 

There just aren't that many troops that run the number of canoe trips and hikes and water rescue meetings and all the rest that are necessary for an average boy to learn all those things well in a year.

 

So FCFY instead pushes 'em toward skipping Step 1 of Advancement and just goin' with once-and-done.

 

Beavah

 

[qwazse]

I'm a little more forgiving then Beav. I don't mind if they don't test on those 9 points in the context of a canoe trip or two.

 

But, I don't want them testing before an adult. Simple reason, older boys forget those points no matter how well you've drilled it into them.* If you've executed 12 trips already, like as not you're going to forget some safety point. But, if you've had to test 4 or 5 crossovers every year, as well a trip afloat, earn canoeing MB, etc ... you've bettered the odds of having those points in your head when you need them!

 

*Aren't you all glad that I didn't point out that thanks to "Reference" not being explicitly in EDGE, the boys wouldn't know that they should look up the the safety points before they plan?

[Horizon]

Beavah - your requirement for several canoe trips for earning First Class appears to be at odds with the requirement:

 

"First Class requirement 9a: Tell what precautions must be taken for a safe trip afloat."

 

It does NOT say plan and run a canoe trip. It says tell what you have to do to be prepared to be safe on the water. I would agree that simply memorizing the words and regurgitating them is too little, but you description sounds like too much to me.

 

A program with enough opportunity for hiking, water activities, and cooking plus offering First Aid Merit Badge can easily fulfill both the letter and the intent of current BSA advancement requirements.

[Beavah]

Yah, Horizon, I hear yeh about the requirement. It's just that the requirement is Step 2 of Advancement, eh? It's the test.

 

Now, what does a boy have to do in Step 1 of Advancement in order to learn all the things needed to run a safe trip afloat before he takes the test?

 

I suppose that somebody might say that all the lad has to do is go home and memorize the 9 points and then regurgitate them at the next meeting, but I agree with yeh that I don't think any of us would consider that Scouting.

 

I would think that in order to learn all the things to run a safe trip afloat, a boy would have to go on at least a few safe trips afloat, both as a participant and as a safety helper / assistant leader in his patrol. Then when he tells the ASPL how to run a safe trip afloat for his sign-off, he's not vomiting forth memorized lines he doesn't understand and won't remember, he's instead talkin' about proper PFDs and how to check their fit, and proper canoe sizing and maintenance and how to balance partners and assess skill levels. He can talk about river hazards not by reciting a generic line but by describing the river hazards he's actually experienced and how to avoid 'em (or respond after a failure to avoid ). He has the necessary experience to know when it's OK to fool around and when not - in other words he has learned what "Discipline" really means in a boating context, not just how to stack a sandwich.

 

After that lad earns First Class, he becomes eligible in Scouting for various high adventure activities as well as servin' as a POR within his troop, eh? That's where he is goin' to have to actually perform those skills and plan and lead in those environments, being partly responsible for the safety of his patrol-mates and troop-mates. You're right that's not part of the First Class requirements, but the First Class requirements are there to prepare him for these things that should be expected of him at Star and Life. If he can't even tell about 'em, how will he be able to do 'em when he needs to?

 

So da question in terms of FCFY is how much time and experience does an average lad who joins with no boating experience (since it's mostly not allowed in cubs) need before he has really learned and can tell about all the things needed for safety afloat? On his own, from what he has learned, not from what he has crammed. I think it takes more than one time out.

 

Same with navigation. Same with cooking. Same with first aid. Same with water rescue. Heck, we all know that one time out ain't enough even for simple stuff like knot tying and fire starting.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Horizon]

I feel like you are describing Canoeing MB, not 9a though.

 

I don't canoe around here, we either surf (not a Scout MB, though it should be), or kayak as a Troop activity I admit. If I had to have 5 kayak treks over a two year period to get scouts to First Class inside of 2 years, I would have a challenge that would impact other activities like hiking, rock climbing and basic camping. I think that you are putting too much into that requirement personally.

 

I expect a First Class Scout to be able to know the right way to be safe on the water, I don't expect him to be an expert in any given water craft. For that, we have the merit badges.

 

As for cooking, we have enough campouts with all types of cooking gear in our mixed age patrols that we don't have a problem with that.

 

With knots and lashings, we make them relevant with games, contests, and the regularly scheduled "oops, we forgot the tents" campouts where shelters have to be built from poles, ropes and tarps.

[Horizon]

I feel like you are describing Canoeing MB, not 9a though.

 

I don't canoe around here, we either surf (not a Scout MB, though it should be), or kayak as a Troop activity I admit. If I had to have 5 kayak treks over a two year period to get scouts to First Class inside of 2 years, I would have a challenge that would impact other activities like hiking, rock climbing and basic camping. I think that you are putting too much into that requirement personally.

 

I expect a First Class Scout to be able to know the right way to be safe on the water, I don't expect him to be an expert in any given water craft. For that, we have the merit badges.

 

As for cooking, we have enough campouts with all types of cooking gear in our mixed age patrols that we don't have a problem with that.

 

With knots and lashings, we make them relevant with games, contests, and the regularly scheduled "oops, we forgot the tents" campouts where shelters have to be built from poles, ropes and tarps.

[qwazse]

Canoeing is just an example. Same principles apply to any kayaking, rafting, or small craft activity. The more diverse activities where a boy sees the principles applied, the better.

[CricketEagle]

Beavah,

 

Regarding "Once and Done"

 

I am with ya, but

 

The letter of many of the requirements read like "tell, do". I can't anything more to those. I agree that one or two times does not equal mastery of a skill.

 

All I can do is in the 2nd year start making those boys plan the events. Repeat the skills while having them teach the new lads. For those who think they have mastered "safety afloat" etc, I will tell you as an adult I never consider myself as having mastered a skill.

 

Yes I have all the certificates that say I do, but I have to always go back to the check lists and re-read things. Assuming mastery for a boy or an adult can get you into trouble. Teaching them the process of double checking and where to look for information works better.

 

And yes, we do incorporate MB into the mix such as canoeing and hiking when possible. Older boys working on Camping MB plan a few outings etc.

 

I am not a big fan of the current requirements as they are laid out now. I see the current requirements as trying to ease the boys into scouting without making them do much "hard work". But it does work to keep boys in the system.

 

As a youth, the approach my troop used was to make you do the MB's right away. I did Cooking MB as new 11 year old scout. Scared the heck out on me having an adult looking over my shoulder all the time as I did the work. I believe this approach was a factor in a few of the boys dropping out around me. Looking back as an adult, they may have dropped anyway.

[OldGreyEagle]

Cricket, I agree that 2-3 times does not equal mastery, that is why I am an advocate of centering the Troops program around Scouting SKills and having the boys constantly use and refine their skills.

 

You have the boy show the skill, but its never one and done, those skills come back on a constant basis into the troops schedule. Always centered on fun and enjoyment, but the adventure that Scouting promises is based on the skills you need to get to First Class

[Eagle92]

Cricket,

 

A few comments.

 

1) Yes the requirements say "tell, do," but that does not mean you have to immediately sign off on it after one time. I admit I am disappointed in the current BSHB removing the phrase that was in previous books, "master the skills" in regards to advancement. But I am going to paraphrase some elements of the Current Guide to Advancement.

 

A) The badge represents what the scout CAN DO, not a reward for what he has done (caps for emphasis)

 

B) Teaching skills is a way of learning and reinforcing the skills. So you can wait until the Scout works with others on the skills before sign offs.

 

2) As others have said, a strong, active program that uses the skills on a monthly basis will reinfoce the skills and allow them to master them in quick time.

[Tampa Turtle]

We try to be pretty tough on FC 9a--you know it might just save a life. It kinda depends on the boy. We had one boy who must memorize the stuff and we were going on a canoe trip and he is asking the SPL for the buddy boat assignment, who was the chase boat, etc. So I knew he had a good handle on it. Other boys won't learn it until they physically practice it.

 

Another time a boy fell in off a dock (was not a big deal). Our Asberger boy on the dock kept yelling at another "you reach, reach!" and ran for the life ring and rope "throw, throw!" and threw it in. Boy grabbed rope, pulled out all's well. "No Row, then" said our Asbie. We were all pretty proud.

 

We then spent the next 15 minutes going over the Safe Swim guidelines.

[CricketEagle]

E92,

 

Back to the original idea of this thread: Looking over past results, I see about 1/3 of the boys completing first class in 12 to 15 months. A few have taken 4 years. Most are done in 1 year. This is with a troop centered program, not doing some of those 1 week wonder programs I have seen.

 

Therefore, 1 year is absolutely doable, but it is not a guarantee of success. Neither is 2 or 3 years. The biggest issue is getting the boys to show up.

 

You wrote:

 

>>>"Yes the requirements say "tell, do," but that does not mean you have to immediately sign off on it after one time. I admit I am disappointed in the current BSHB removing the phrase that was in previous books, "master the skills" in regards to advancement. "

 

Not to be rude, but by not signing off isnt that in effect adding requirements? I also council a few merit badges, there are parts to those I do not like. But I have to stick to the written requirements. But I do agree one method of testing a boy is to see if he can teach others, but it is not the only method.

 

>>>A) The badge represents what the scout CAN DO, not a reward for what he has done (caps for emphasis).

 

Not to Lawyer up an answer, but I can be President. Can I get a badge for that?...Nope. The only professional badges I can get are based on past tests and requirements fulfilled.

 

The truth is that Can Dos cant really be measured, only past performance can. What is the disclaimer they put on those commercials for IRAS. Past performance does not guarantee future successbut with the badge, future success is much more likely.

 

 

>>>>B) Teaching skills is a way of learning and reinforcing the skills. So you can wait until the Scout works with others on the skills before sign offs.

 

See my answer above, but you have to be careful that it does not become the Life Requirement.

6. While a Star Scout, use the EDGE method to teach a younger Scout the skills from ONE of the following seven choices, so that he is prepared to pass those requirements to his unit leader's satisfaction.

Again, I dont 100% agree putting off this requirement until Life, but it is written that way.

>>>>2) As others have said, a strong, active program that uses the skills on a monthly basis will reinforce the skills and allow them to master them in quick time.

 

Agreed 100%...

 

[CricketEagle]

Big typo in my last message...Most boys complete FC within 18 months to 2 years..

If it goes on longer than that, we tend to lose them from the program.

[Beavah]

Yah, hmmm...

 

The original handbook language was "No council, district, unit or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from any advancement requirement. A Boy Scout badge recognizes what a young man is able to do, it is not a reward for what he has done."

 

So if yeh do just sign off for once-and-done, yeh are in fact subtracting from the requirements, and ignorin' the proper steps to advancement. Of course back in B-P's day, it was a matter of honor, eh? If yeh couldn't perform any of the First Class skills on demand when needed, you were honor bound to surrender your badge in shame.

 

Now, I'm not sure we need the shame part . But we are supposed to be teachin' character and values. A man of honor doesn't claim recognition for skills he doesn't have, nor does he give recognition to others for skills they don't have.

 

Someone may look at a lad's uniform and say "Great! A First Class Scout! That means yeh can come help us run safety at the waterfront because we're short-handed." If he can't handle water rescues and safe swim on demand, if he can't perform first aid on demand, if he can't navigate or handle being lost when it happens, if he can't plan this weekend's patrol menus on his own, then he isn't a First Class Scout.

 

Doing it once is part of Step 1: A Scout Learns. There's no way to learn anything without doin' it a few times. So when a lad does something once, the proper response is "Great! Good job. Now try again." And then it's "Great, good job! Now try it again with this twist". And then "I bet you can't do it if ..." Fun, challenge, some successes, some failures, are all a part of learning stuff in Scouting, eh?

 

Testing only comes after the lad has learned.

 

And to my mind, teaching comes only after that, in fairness to the learner. Teachin' is how yeh reinforce and deepen your knowledge of somethin', not how yeh learn it in the first place.

 

Beavah