First class in first year - or not

[qwazse]

Does if fall on the PL and APL to juggle the duty roster and Patrol Meeting schedule to meet these individual plans?

 

In our troop, yes and no.

 

I've known PL's who were very serious about doing this, and very frustrated when a kid who last week said he wanted to complete requirement X is now shrugging off his duties for req X! In that case, I encourage a PL to focus attention on other boys who are interested in progressing.

 

Sometimes we have a bunch of younger boys who are picking up skills faster than we could track. (It's been a while.) When that was the case, we gave all of our FC+ scouts basic ground rules on reviewing and approving requirements, and allowed any of them to sign off requirements.

 

In general, that's why we have PLC's and cracker barrels. So that the older boys can vent to one another about those "tough cases". Then they can decide if and how they want to provide program to accommodate them. So we have a little bit of team teaching going on.

 

I've seen this "impromptu teachers' lounge" manifest itself repeatedly. Not merely about scouting. Troop life provides a venue where boys have time to figure out how to address problems in their band or sports team. Even among my crew: one time the young ladies were talking about how to better help a learning disabled client where a couple of them worked.

 

So, the more you let boys take up these responsibilities, the healthier it is. I wouldn't say abandon your chart, because that's largely immaterial to the whole process. With or without a spreadsheet, adults can either act to support a boy-led structure or undermine it.

[OldGreyEagle]

I get so confused, I see Beavah using a quote form me and then I read his post and not sure how what he says relates to what I posted.

 

A troop "could" set up stoves and have scouts practice cooking and cleaning during troop meetings and even "GASP" duing Patrol meetings outside of Troop meetins, it could happen.

 

Cooking is not a skill that can only be done and learned on Campouts,

 

All a troop can do is offer the program, it's up to the scout to avail himself of the program and learn the skills.

[Beavah]

A troop "could" set up stoves and have scouts practice cooking and cleaning during troop meetings and even "GASP" duing Patrol meetings outside of Troop meetins, it could happen.

 

Yah, sure.

 

Now tell me how many troops yeh know that really have the Troop Guide come in on a non-meeting night and set up 4-8 sets of stoves and cook gear with food to help the NSP boys practice.

 

Remember, all of the testing of requirements has to occur on outings, eh? So as TwoCubDad said, even if yeh started with testing immediately (and skip the whole "A Scout Learns" step of advancement), yeh still wouldn't really be able to make it to FCFY without runnin' multiple overnight outings a month.

 

Can we dream up exceptional troops where FCFY can be done well for a subset of boys who are themselves exceptional? Yah, sure. But for an average troop or average kids, it's just nonsense, eh? Because of that, FCFY leads to all sorts of unintended and unfortunate program consequences.

 

Beavah

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Who said anything about having the Troop guide do it?

 

Did I say anything about using the New Scout Patrol in any of my postings?

 

Its tough to carry on a conversation when I don't know where the resonses are comming from,

 

here, I'll help

 

First Class First year? Terrible idea, never happen,

 

[Beavah]

Well, the responses are comin' from assuming an average troop followin' the program as presented, with a New Scout Patrol where instruction is handled by a Troop Guide and (youth) instructors, and the annual program plan is created by the PLC, not the adults.

 

But I'll just go back to my question, then. How do yeh actually "schedule the activities a scout needs" for First Class, when what a scout needs for First Class are skills, not activities?

 

 

 

 

 

[SeattlePioneer]

At our last Council Roundtable, the Coucil VP for Membership suggested to District Membership Chairs that a goal should be to promote FCFY programs because they would promote Scouts remaining in the program.

 

She mostly has a background in Cub Scouts. I wound up disagreeing with her for the reasons often described in this thread. But her approach is characteristic of those who adopt National's program goals without much experience in what makes a good Scouting program, in my view.

 

I probably wasn't real popular with her that evening.

[OldGreyEagle]

Ah, as good friend Ed would say,

 

When you assume...

 

Anyway, to get to first class a scout has to whip and fuse rope, well fuse a synthetic rope and whip a real one

 

Raise and lower and fold an American Flag

 

Use a Map and Compass

 

LEarn about Leave no Trace

 

Select a Campsite

 

Learn First Aid for specific situations

 

Learn to tell directions at night

 

Idenitify Plants

 

and some other things, like the knots, all of the above could easily be worked into an anuual plan for the troop. The skills are presented and those who know the skills help the guys who don't. After the skills learning part is done, then there is patrol competiton centering on the skills learned and maybe a few that were not just covered. That way it has something for everyone. The PLC sets the meeting agenda, including those topics are not just because its for advancment, its because they are scouting skills that need to be reviewed and in helping those who dont them, the guys who know them help reinifirce them. Now, if the PLC does not want to do that, its up to them. They have 12 months to plan meetings, events and acitivities. How they spend that time is their repsonsibility, I dont think its a burden to review these activities once a year but that my thinking, theirs could be different. But I do not think presenting them in a year is rushing things. The scout has to know the requirements, not just do it once. If a scout misses something, then its up to the scout, not the troop to learn the skill.

 

I dont see it as that big a challenge, but there are many colors in the crayon box

 

Please note, I did not say indicate nor assume mastery of any of these topics from a single exposure, The topics are taught/presented and the scouts use them. Its up to the scout to seek out whoever is the designated signer off when he thinks he can do the requirements to the level the unit sees fit. Note I did not say merely being there means the requirement is signed off(This message has been edited by oldgreyeagle)

[Oak Tree]

How do yeh actually "schedule the activities a scout needs" for First Class, when what a scout needs for First Class are skills, not activities?

 

Beavah, I think you might be overly pedantic on this one. What we are scheduling would be opportunities for the Scouts to learn the skill. Scheduling time at the pool for the aquatics requirements. Scheduling troop meetings on cooking skills or whatever. Scheduling some time on a camping trip to work in the axeyard.

 

Technically, you are right. The Scout doesn't get the signature for the activity (except for those few where he does). The Scout gets the signature for demonstrating the skill. But the activities provide the opportunity to both learn and to demonstrate the skill.

[Beavah]

Yah, OK, now let's dig into that a bit further, eh?

 

If I'm readin' yeh right (and I might not be), we're at a meeting and the skills will be "presented", with some boys helpin' others. Does being "presented" and then helped over the course of half an hour or so constitute the learning really being "done"?

 

Then there's a patrol competition. In this competition, how much practice does the individual scout get without help? Let's say the patrol contest lasts 20 minutes. With 8 lads in the patrol takin' turns, each boy gets 2-3 minutes or so. Is that enough to learn? Of course maybe the patrol is workin' as a group, in which case the boy might not really get any individual time at all. Remember, we're talkin' an average boy, with average attention span, who comes in with no prior skills, in an average troop with an ordinary level of activity.

 

Of course, yeh could spend multiple meetings on a skill like navigation, eh? Problem is, in an active troop yeh have maybe 40 meetings a year, and there are more than 20 individual skill requirements in Tenderfoot alone, eh? Yeh don't even have time to spend that one full meeting on map and compass.

 

So honestly, the meetings don't really add much, eh? It's the outing time that really counts.

 

What do yeh suppose it really takes for that average lad who comes in without any prior skills to learn enough to be able to plan and navigate a 5 mile route on his own (mix of on-trail and a bit of open land)? On his own meaning that he personally can do the navigation. Because that's the requirement, eh?

 

Then add up what it really takes to learn to swim, and perform water rescues, and identify plants, and learn a mess of first aid, and plan and cook meals, and... and... and...

 

Beavah

 

[qwazse]

What do yeh suppose it really takes for that average lad who comes in without any prior skills to learn enough to be able to plan and navigate a 5 mile route on his own (mix of on-trail and a bit of open land)? On his own meaning that he personally can do the navigation. Because that's the requirement, eh?

 

Simple answer:

Step 1: losing patience with EDGE.

Step 2: READING REFERENCE MATERIAL

[Scoutfish]

Eagle92,

 

No offense taken. So far, what I have done as a leader is sit back, watch what the boys are doing with the troop guide and occasionally, the SPL.

 

 

The last few minutes or so, I will remind them to tell their parents of upcoming stuff. I can already see that hardly any info makes it back to mom or dad until 5 minutes before the event/activity that is supposed to happen - actually takes place.

 

With most of them having earned the scout badge( yeah, You'd think AoL would garrantee that one), I ask them about 15 minutes before colors if they have been going over what is needed, paper work, med forms, etc...

 

I am also reminding them that they need to come up with a patrol yell and flag to go along with their patrol name : Pythons

 

Other than that, myself and 3 other ASM's pretty much tell jokes, talk about ways to create the next BBQ grill masterpiece and the pros and cons of french press coffee over campfire perculated coffee ( I prefer the latter).

 

 

 

[Scoutfish]

" How do yeh actually "schedule the activities a scout needs" for First Class, when what a scout needs for First Class are skills, not activities? "

 

Well it depends..... How often does your troop meet? How often do they camp? How often do they do stuff in the community? What does your family do outside of scouting?

 

My troop is set up so that every scout will have an oppertunity to go camping at least once a month. Usually there are two oppertunities each month that one is tied in with a service project.

 

Figuring in things like Thanksgiving and Christams, and the month that you go to summer camp. and even Jambo....the boys will have a chance to go camping at least 21 times a year.

 

So a really dedicated scout could go camping at least 21 times just at the troop level .This is not counting Jambos. camporees, summer camps, other special events.

 

I imagine in reality though, that most of the scouts go camping 13 or 14 times a year at the troop level. Friday evening through Sunday morning works out to two days/two nights. That works out to 48 days and nights of skill practicing. Again, not counting Jambo, camporee summer camp, etc.....

 

We do two camporees a year. Friday night til noon Sunday. That adds 4 more days/nights of scouts cooking, setting up camp, practicing skills.

 

 

We are in the middle of an oyster shell recycling program where the boys are bagging shells one day, then camping out near the waterway next to where the boats load up the shells and then take them to the new bed sites. They cook their own supper and breakfast. Lunch is more like a snack that a real meal.

 

Of course, there are not always that many service projects available. In that case, they go camping just for the sake of camping. Skills are used during these times with a part of the day set aside for teaching new skills in a new area.

 

Right now, it's geocaching as our camporee coming up is a geocaching event. That means that even the scout rank are learning about using a gps - and this particular camporee has events that will require just a compass and map without any gps device - they are learning orienterring too.

 

So, alot of the skills are not being taught, but demonstrated to the scouts by higher ranking scouts, and then being used by all while out camping and in the field.

 

Will this cover every single element of every single requirement?

 

Probably not, but isn't that where troop and patrol competitions come in? If all goes well, you will never have to use what you learnd in first aid, but the competitions are as close as you may ever get until something does happen.

 

So now, it all depends on the scout . How much is up to him. Some boys are real self motivators. Some are probably parent( no driver's license til you get Eagle) driven.

 

Other just take it casual.

 

So, if a scout wants it, it's doable.

[Beavah]

So a really dedicated scout could go camping at least 21 times just at the troop level .This is not counting Jambos. camporees, summer camps, other special events.

 

Well, a trail to first class lad isn't goin' to be goin' to Jambo, eh?

 

I get your point, but I think what you're not realizin' is that your troop is quite unusual. Remember, a troop makes the Bronze level of Journey to Excellence for camping four (4!) times durin' the year. Gold level is only 9 times, eh? Those numbers are set in JTE to reflect what's really goin' on in most troops in most of the nation.

 

I think I've agreed that an unusually active program can achieve great things with very gung ho and dedicated boys who come in with lots of prior experience. Run 2-3 weeks of patrol cooking summer camp, and you'll go far. You'll go pretty far at 2-3 outings a month, or with outdoor rather than indoor meetings. Naturally, troops that run this sort of program are also goin' to attract lads who have had more camping experience than average as elementary schoolers, so they're goin' to be startin' further along than many other troops.

 

But yeh can be JTE gold, by our own measures a "top" troop, and offerin' every boy a real opportunity at FCFY will be out of your reach. I also think that even for a very active program, if yeh don't dumb things down it really gets a bit too adult-driven / less fun when yeh try to pack it into a year. MHO.

 

 

Beavah, I think you might be overly pedantic on this one.

 

Well, perhaps too pithy.

 

I honestly think this is important though, eh? Yeh can't schedule learning. There's an insidious assumption in FCFY that you can, that you must and it drives well-intentioned adults toward the scoutin' version of insanity.

 

Built in to the notion that yeh can schedule learning is a belief that all boys learn at the same rate and from the same things. So if yeh just schedule those things then you've provided the appropriate opportunity.

 

It's all nonsense, and poor scouting.

 

Beavah

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[OldGreyEagle]

I beleive First Class First year is a good goal

[Second Class]

Sorry, don't have time to read four pages of responses. Here's what I do: The program is planned to provide advancement activities regardless of the venue.

 

If the scout wants to advance, the opportunity is there. If there are conflicting needs, of two or more scouts, the scout closest to rank gets it. Some might say this is wrong, but I find the ones that want to advance are the ones working on it (duh), and are motivated to ask for the job, be it cooking, grubmaster, etc.

 

I had one boy make First Class in 8 months, and did it well. Never missed an outing or a meeting. Others take 2 years.

 

Provide opportunity. Push, don't pull.