First class in first year - or not

[Tampa Turtle]

I also have noticed that trend. But assuming you offer enough opportunities (camping 9=10 times, activities, summer and winter camp) many "slow achieving" boys I have seen tend to be ones that are under-attenders and often do not like camping that much.

 

I have noticed a trend in our Troop of more "late entry" boys joining at 14-16 who have to struggle to get to 1C but make outstanding Patrol leaders.

[qwazse]

I have not noticed any such pattern. In fact recent history is bearing out that our "slow and steady boys" are sticking with scouting, while the FCFY boys have left us for video games and such!

 

I guess troops are like a box of chocolates ...

[Eagle92]

A few comments.

 

1) I too notice that those who take their time tend to stay longer. good friend of mine never got past Life. Guess what he did, he signed on as an ASM. Another 'deathbed" Eagle I know is registered as....an ASM. And I can go on. But starting with my Eagle cousin, it seems like most, not all but a very large majority, who get Eagle int he 13-15yo range do not stay involved.

 

2)Nothing wrong with not signing off until they know the skill well enough to teach it. A) that use to be the norm back in the day in my neckof the woods, and B) current GtA states that techign the skills is one way for scouts toshow they know the skill.

 

3) Upon reflection theirs is already an advancement check off in place that is the Scout's responsibility, and that is their BSHB.

 

4) "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." Green Bar Bill

[SMT224]

A rank a year works just fine.

 

If they advance faster than that, great, but no need to push it. They have plenty of time. By the time they're 1st Class and working on Star, they should really know Campcraft and Scoutcraft skills because they've been on plenty of camping trips and have had lot's of experience.

[Scoutfish]

"Fish what I think folks are trying to get across to you is that it is not up to YOU to use, or not use a FYFC schedule/line-up/etc. "

 

Yes I agree, they are doing just that.

 

 

"It is not up to YOU to slow down achievement, or to concentrate on one rank at a time."

 

Yes, I know that. I have said several times that I am not pushing or holding anybody back. I said that I will work with the scouts at their own rate and work with them as fast as THEY WANT .

 

This is not my schedule, it was not my decision, I did not make the choice.

 

As far as a documnet, I looked at a few random ones online, and they were all different. Each one had a troop header , so I know they were individual troop plans, not a BSA plan. Never thought otherwise. I was just looking at them to get an idea and I printed out several different ones that I could show the boys to help them when THEY make up THIER schedule with the help and guidance of THIER troop guide.

 

So, the scouts were asked as by the SM of the troop - while they were still Webelos and not part of the troop (while checking out several troops)- if that was something they wanted to do, or if they wanted to do something differently. Then he even discussed several other ways of doing tings.

 

The BOYS decided that the FYFC sounded good. At that time, I was not a member of the troop either, so I had absolutely no part in that discussion. I only observed as a CM and as a parent of one of the boys. And the SM asked the parents to be there .....in case somebody has a percieved "helicopter parent" issue with that.

 

Now, if the scouts decide that FYFC is what they want to do, I am going to go along with that and help them along the way with encouragement. I will not push them harder, I will not steer them,. I will offer encouragement just like I do with any other part of scouting.

 

*** This is the actual , real honest to goodness question I am asking you guys!!! Don't interpret it to mean anything about an offical BSA document or that it is my plan or idea or that I am pushing any boy!!! I have not made a plan or schedule. Never said or implied that I did. ***

 

QUESTION: If one or more boys, or even all change their minds, could you still follow the plan but just slow it down. Instead of it being a 12 month ( or so ) plan, could you stretch it out longer ..say 2 or even 3 years and just advance one rank at a time?

 

 

RECAP:

 

I am not running this. I am not deciding it for them. I know this is not cub scouts, I NEVER had any plans or ideas to have them all advance on a strict schedule or at the same time.

 

Anybody who thought so put that into the question themselves as I never said that was what I thought or was doing.

 

 

So, thanks to your answer to the actual question I am asking.

 

Aside from that, I am glad of the replies you gave as they would straighten out/reign in a Webelos III ASM.

 

I think what you guys have written should be a part of the parent part of a boy Scouts handbook and to be signed by the parents as proof they read it when a boy joins a troop.

 

Matter of fact, with very minor changes, it should be part of a cub scouts application where parents sign off permission for thier son to join.

[ScoutNut]

>>"I was just looking at them to get an idea and I printed out several different ones that I could show the boys to help them when THEY make up THIER schedule with the help and guidance of THIER troop guide.">"QUESTION: If one or more boys, or even all change their minds, could YOU still follow the plan but just slow it down. Instead of it being a 12 month ( or so ) plan, could YOU stretch it out longer ..say 2 or even 3 years and just advance one rank at a time?"

[Scoutfish]

Scoutnut,

 

Thank you, that made alot of sense.

 

As for "you" - just a general term. "You" is the scout, "you" is the Pl or SPL.

 

It wasn'r ever a plan laid out for all the boys.

 

Each scout should have his own plan. My troop camps at least once a month, sometimes two, but we know that every scout cannot be on every campout. No way all the boys could camp at the exact same campouts all the time. Plus I do know that some boys learn and advance faster than others.

 

I just downloaded some guides to give them an example of how they could do certain requirements when on a weekend campout. It wasn't even an entire FYFC plan or checksheet.

 

It was just an intenary of a weekend campout showing how certain requirements are/can be met just from going on campouts on a regular basis.

 

Anyways, You did answer my question .

 

Thanks! Mark

 

[qwazse]

One pointer (and a really important one I think, because most boys don't do any journaling) is after those trips, have each boy reflect on what he just did. "What was one thing you did?" "What was the best thing that happened?"

 

Then have the boys write the event in their handbook. (There's a place for them to record their first five activities with the troop.)

 

The feedback you get from reflecting like this will give you a real idea of how you'll need to slow some things down or speed somethings up.

[OldGreyEagle]

This may be a regional thing, but this is my impression for First Class in the First year. Its not about the scout, let me say this again, its not about the scout. Its about the Troop having a program so that if a scout was so inclined they could earn First Class in a year. IF and that is a big IF, the scout is so inclined, he could earn First CLass in a year. That means the Troop scheduled the activities that a Scout needs to earn first class. Enough events, enough campouts, that sort of thing.

 

I do not ever remember anyone ever saying a scout doesnt have to do a skill again once he gets it signed off. The scout skills are used in the proram. The Scouting Program revolves around the scouting skills. If you scouts are not presented with opportunities to use the skills, they will lose them but each event, each activity the troop/patrol has is an opportunity to use scout skills. If anyone thinks First Class First Year means you force the scouts to advance, then they do not understand the Advancement Program.

 

Leastwise, that is how I thought it was supposed to be

[Eagle92]

Fish,

 

A couple of things.

 

1) As mentioned, advancement is an individual matter at the Boy Scout level, not a patrol matter. So Scouts deciding to slow down when their buddies are going full throttle is normal. Key is are they growing physically, mentally, and morally, as well as havign fun? If yes, then no problems.

 

2) The PLC, the patrol leaders, Troop Guide, and SPL, and some troops also include the older scouts in leadership positions, are the ones that create the schedule for the unit. Yes they need to look at doing advancement on trips, but their focus should be FUN, EXCITEMENT, and ADVENTURE. Most times advancement items will occur naturally. And Sometimes the trips are just FUN.

 

3) Things happen. Yes scouts can look at plans and say yep they want to follow them, but in the end it's A) not a race, and B) it's the journey they took to meet the goal that is really important, not completing the goal.

 

4) One sign of a good troop is that they are active,and it sounds like yours is a good one. Someone called it "advancment by stealth," ie the scouts are meeting requirements through normal activities without realizing it. Heck sometimes special activities without realizing it. I remember as ASPL watching new scouts do stuff on camp outs, and later them asking them for their books to sign off b/c they met requirements without realizing it. Also had that happen to me a few times, but especially with Motorboating MB. I thought I was having fun learning how to use a motorboat, when I find out at the COH I met the requirements for the MB.

 

5) Please do not take this critically as that is not how it's suppose to be. Another sign of a good troop is the adults let the Scouts do their thing. I know I joke around saying that leaders need to sit around the campfire, drinking coffee and asking scouts when they come up with questions, "Have you asked your PL," but to a degree that IS how it's suppose to be.

 

Again this is not meant as criticism, especially since you are doing a heck of a lot better than some new BS leaders I've known, But I think you are a little too involved still. One suggestion is to talk to and work with the Troop Guide to get his take on things.

 

An aside, I hope I have the restraint you're having when my oldest crosses over.

[DLChris71]

One thing I would bring up is if each scout has their own plan for advancement, who is following up with them and mentoring them? Does if fall on the PL and APL to juggle the duty roster and Patrol Meeting schedule to meet these individual plans?

 

This is one of the things that I do like about the FCFY plans is that it can help chart what areas do need to be covered so each scout can be rotated through. To me it's the playbook while not being too rigid.

[OldGreyEagle]

Advancement is at the Scouts pace, some may want to be Eagle, others may just like the fellowship and others may be there because mom and dad say so. Each scout in the situations I mentioned will have their own agenda regarding Advancement. The troop is repsonsible to keep track of the requirments, although one could say that scout has his handbook for that, and to be sure the Scout has opportunities to learn, use and have skills signed off but the heart of Advancement is what the scout makes it.

 

At Eagle Courts of Honor I want to hear the Scout thank those who were there for him and helped him and guided him. I don't want to hear a scout thank Mr GreyEagle for kicking his butt all the way to Eagle. I have mine, I can't earn another.

[Eagle92]

DL,

 

"You must unlearn what you have learned." YODA

 

In Boy Scouts it is the responibility of each individual Scout to create their own plan for advancement and keep track of what they have done and need to do. In your example of the duty rooster, the Scout needs to talk to the PL and his patrol mates when they are working on the duty rooster to say, "hey can I do this since I need it for xyz rank?"

 

In regards to patrol meetings, their focus should NOT be on advancement, but rather getting ready for the monthly activity: practicing skills, getting menues and duty roosters made, coming up with tent assignements, etc. Advancement is a by-product of the patrol meeting, and not the goal of it.

 

Big difference from Cub Scouts, esp with the Cub Scout 2010 plans that have come out where every meeting is focused on advancement.

 

As for the FCFY plans not being rigid, from the ones I have seen, and I admit I have not seen a lot but only a handful, they are VERY rigid and take out the fun of scouting in my opinion. Also they take away from the PLC planning their own activities, which is another element of Scouting.

 

Also if memory serves, national did come out with a proposed plan when the FCFY program was unveiled in 1989. Don't know much about it as we tried the NSP concept for a year and it failed miserably. We went back to the tried and true method of mixed age patrols with older scouts buddying up with younger scouts to mentor and work with them.

 

Only once did we have another NSP after the first fiasco, and that was when a new troop was created and worked with us to get started. That troop was a Webelos den that moved up and the CO wanted a troop. Long story short, my troop eventually absorbed the new troop into ours, and we moved to their CO. After the move, we went back to mixed age patrols.

 

 

[Oak Tree]

My simple answer: provide the opportunities for Scouts to advance if they want to take advantage of it, but let them participate or not as they desire. Some of them will make it in one year and some of them won't. We don't make a big deal about trying to get there in any particular period of time.

[Beavah]

That means the Troop scheduled the activities that a Scout needs to earn first class.

 

Yah, hmmm...

 

I'm sure that's the stated rationale.

 

But let's dig into that a bit deeper. How do yeh actually "schedule the activities that a Scout needs" for First Class, when what a scout needs for First Class is not activities, but skills?

 

That's where the fundamental flaw is. Boys don't learn on a schedule. Just because you had an activity doesn't mean he learned, eh? In fact, I can't recall very many times where anyone has really learned anything the very first time they tried it.

 

So scheduling activities sets up a one-and-done mentality, eh? We had the activity, the boy was there, so he got the signoff.

 

Twocubdad's cooking example is a great one, eh? If a lad has never cooked before, how many times cooking does it take before he can successfully cook some pancakes, start to finish, from stove setup to cleanup? I'm talkin' doin' it himself, eh? Not just watching or helping out, and with no adult hints or hovering.

 

How many times planning and shopping and figurin' out quantities before he is able to plan and buy a meal on his own? A weekend's worth of meals?

 

In order to be a First Class Scout, the lad should be able to, on his own, plan, purchase, store, prepare, cook, and clean a weekend's worth of nutritious meals. And then be good enough to also lead some less experienced boys in helping out with the cooking.

 

Now how do 8 boys in a NSP each manage to get all that experience in a single year?

 

The only way yeh do it is if yeh carefully schedule cooking "activities", complete with a well-ordered and adult-planned cooking rotation, and sign off for once-and-done.

 

It's far more natural to think in terms of a rank a year in a mixed-age patrol. There an 8th grader may be working on doing a weekend food plan (First Class), collaborating with a 7th grader working on a single meal plan (2nd Class) , and working with several 6th graders who are learning cooking basics by helping prepare meals (Tenderfoot). Each of the few sixth graders can get many opportunities to help with preparing meals; each 7th grader can get several tries at individual meal planning, each 8th grader can get several tries at weekend menu planning. And because yeh have kids at different levels, the younger ones can learn by watching and example from his patrol-mates, instead of relying on a TG/Adult ASM.

 

Beavah

 

Beavah