First class in first year - or not

[Eagle92]

This topic is on deck again?

 

In regrads to FCFY, here are my comments.

 

#1 Came out in 1989 based upon research by national on how to keep members stay in Scouting. Research showed that Scouts who get FC in a year tend to stay in longer, hence the push.

 

But IMHO what the research did NOT show was why Scouts get FC in a year. Based upon my expereince, you need a "Hiking and Camping Troop" that has an active outdoor program.

 

Oh and the original research, don't know if they have done another survey since, was based upon the 1979-1989 rank requirements that had time requirements between Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class. Also First Aid MB was required for FC. National did away with the time requirements to facilitate FCFY.

 

#2 IMHO units that focus solely on FCFY have problems. I've seen units that have Star and Life Scouts unable to light a fire, boil water and cook spaghetti. I've seen Star Scouts unable to tie a bowline, and in this particular case he first learned the bowline as a Bear Cub Scout. Again from my expereince these units do not have the outdoor skills traditionally associated with the BSA.

 

Instead of focusing on the boys growing physically, mentally, and morally through an outdoor program that challenges them, the unit focuses on advancement to the detriment of everything else. Proof of that can be seen by the average age of their Eagles, usually in the 14-15 yo range, who then leave Scouting after Eagle. And IMHO that is when the fun picks up a notch.

 

3)The idea of "One and Done," i.e. as soon as the scout does something it get signed off and he never have to worry about it again, is a result of FCFY. I've been thinking about when I first noticed the BSA started having problems with scouts who are FC, Star, Life, and Eagle, who cannot do basic Scoutcraft, and it's in the mid to late 1990s.

 

Not grant you that is when I got active as an adult, and active in the OA and district level, but I do not remember having to reteach basic Scoutcraft prior to that time.

 

I believe the BSHB needs to restate that scoutcraft skills need to be mastered before signing off. AND I concur with the Guide to Advancement's statement that the 'badge represents what the scout is capable (emphasis mine)and is not a reward for what he has done."

 

#4 BP said "Advancement should come as naturally as a suntan, something that just happens in the outdoors." If you have a "hiking and camping troop" that not only has a strong outdoor program doing things every month, but also a program that uses those skills repeatedly, FC within a year will happen.

 

#5 Green Bar Bill said "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING," the current BSHB is a misquote just do the math to prove it , and "SCOUTING IS OUTING"

 

 

 

 

#2

[Scoutfish]

Please...will somebody....anybodt answer ?

 

LOL!

 

Okay, Like I said, I will not push them, but will help them ( by encourageing ) them advance as much as they are ready too.

 

I will say this about my troop, if you are signed off on something, you can bet you will know it inside, outside, and upside down.

 

My troop also goes camping at least once every month and usually 2 times a month except month of summer camp.

 

Looking at a few various FYFC shedules, I am thinking most of it would/could be met without even trying for FCFY .

 

But like I said, the scouts were given a description of this during their Webelos SM conference. They all said they wanted to do it.

 

So, I am thinking that, yeah, they all said they wanted to, but will it really happen or will they change their mind later on?

 

So, if they change their mind, could you still use the FYFC line up, just slow down the rate at which it is achieved or should you dump it completely and just concentrate on one rank at a time as they are outlined in the checkoff section in the hand book.

 

Know what I mean? No overlapping skills as there are in the FCFY check off?

 

Again, I am not going to push them, force them, or run it for them. I will help them advance as much as they are willing to do it, but not push it.

 

 

[Eagle92]

'Fish,

 

Here's my answer FWIW, let the Scouts advance at their own pace. Let their PL or TG and the older Scouts deal with working with them and keeping track of what they do. Let the PLC do their job of creating a calendar and schedule of activities.

 

Someone either here or elsewhere came up with a very regimented FCFY schedule that basically repeated everything, same set of campouts, same locations, etc. every year. Now grant you you will have repeat camp outs, You did not do Vicksburg during the Thanksgiving 3 day weekend, you better have another awesome trip plan to compensate . But the regimentation of that schedule I saw was BORING to 2nd and 3rd year scouts, if they had any left.

 

Again BP said it best with the quote above, and advancement will come naturally with a strong outdoor program. Heck I remember signing off stuff after seeing the scouts doing the requirements without realizing it. And that has happened to me. I was out having fun one weekend only to find out I earned MB at the next COH.

[Twocubdad]

Here's your answer, 'Fish : Use the FYFC schedule as fire starter.

 

As a fresh-scrubbed SM years ago, I bought into the FYFC program as the way to run the program. Put the boys in a New Scout Patrol and crank everyone through FC in 365 days or less. First Class is your "Passport to Adventure" right? That's why you have to be FC to be in OA, go to HA bases or attend jambo, right? It signifies you can handle yourself in the outdoors, right?

 

Um, not if you blew through the whole thing in one year.

 

FYFC forces a "one and done" culture on a troop. All the FYFC schedules I've seen cover each topic once. Scouts successfully complete a requirement once.

 

The issue which finally convinced us FYFC is a bad idea was First Class cooking. so the troop camps monthly, or so and you have 10 or so members in your the new Scout patrol. That means someone has to be doing their first class cooking on their FIRST campout with the troop in order to keep everyone on on track. When do you LEARN to cook? When do you do your Tenderfoot and Second Class cooking? When do develop your cooking skills? When do you have a chance to try something new, fail and try again?

 

Yeah, so one of the kids already knows how to scramble an egg and can cook hotdogs on a stick. So he's patrol cook on one of the early campouts, 'cause by God we're going to check that box! That's a TERRIBLE program! That Scout's trail to First Class has added NOTHING to that young man's skill, knowledge or ability -- no, corrrect that, we've taught him to game the system and find the easiest path to checking the boxes.

 

FYFC also perpetuates the Cub Scout mentality that every single action results in a requirement being completed and that we should be earning a doo-dad of some description every month. So you knock out FC in one year, then Star is a gimme at four more months, right? A week of classroom summer camp, a merit badge university or two and a stint as Troop Librarian and your Life. Not yet 13 years old and Eagle is dead ahead.

 

Somebody find my good signing pen!

 

(Cleansing breath....) Ohmmmmmmmmm.....

 

 

 

 

Scouting is to be experienced, not completed. Experience takes time.

 

Read that aloud with me --

 

Scouting is to be experienced, not completed. Experience takes time.

 

Once again,

 

Scouting is to be experienced, not completed. Experience takes time.

[DLChris71]

Et al- my personal experience was always Boy Scouts, I was never a cub scout and so I perfectly understand the difference between cub scout, webelos, and boy scout advancement. I understand that my son will be getting tested and checked by someone who is not me, and I insist on it. In fact I have told both of my sons that they need to understand that principle.

 

Fish- yes, if someone is struggling with the combined FCFY schedule then yes they will likely benefit from gearing down and focusing on individual requirements.

 

I assume the biggest problem would be in first aid, swimming, knot tying, and actual outing time?

[Eagledad]

Scoutfish, we did answer you, sure you can do the the scedule at a different pace. You can do what ever you want. Most folks basically responded in their own words to guide each scout individually at their own pace and own schedule.

 

Im still wondering, is the FCFY schedule a BSA thing, a troop? I don't remember one.

 

Our these guys in a NSP?

 

Oh Eagle92, great post on the history of FCFY.

 

Barry

[Scoutfish]

I think you guys gave me great answers.

 

But let me clarirty:

 

THis is NOT my plan. This was asked of them before I was an ASM with the troop. Back when the scouts went to a couple different troops to decide which one they wanted to join.

 

They liked the idea and were already chomping at the bit to be boy scouts.

 

Now, as a side note, all the boys in our Webelos den already knew how to cook..somewhat. Hot dogs, hamburgers, bacon, eggs, toast. Give my son a pot, some water and most any kind of pasta and he will cook you a past dish.

 

One boy is a pretty darn good pizza maker.

One makes a good beef stroganough which is pretty damn impressive to me.

 

So again, I apreciate the answer and I do understand and will go by them myself.

 

But please make note: I am the one who told my son that I would rather him age out at Scout rank and have had a ton of fun memories, than worry about advancement for the sake of advancement.

 

Personally, I'd rather he not get Eagle before 16 years old at the soonest.

 

To me, it's about the journey just as much as the destination!

[ScoutNut]

>>"So, if they change their mind, could you still use the FYFC line up, just slow down the rate at which it is achieved or should you dump it completely and just concentrate on one rank at a time as they are outlined in the checkoff section in the hand book."

[SeattlePioneer]

>

 

 

 

Hello Scout Nut,

 

 

The FCFY emphasis of national certainly makes it SEEM like another year of Cub Scouts.

 

I think the advice of people responding on this thread is correct, but you will find lots of troops that have adults frog marching boys in New Scout Patrols through the program, and thence on to Eagle.

[qwazse]

I assume the biggest problem would be in first aid, swimming, knot tying, and actual outing time?

 

every kid has a different hang up.

 

With my youngest son, it was getting off his seat and talking with one of several people in our community about rights and responsibilities. And, getting the price of the items on his menu. He knew how to make pizza, but he didn't know the cost of a cup of flour! I prohibited his mom from looking it up for him. After three years, he figured it out.

 

That's why 'fish, you're better off helping the boys make their own schedule of what they want to do. They'll surprise you. One month half of them might want to nail down all their knots, while the other half want to perfect orienteering skills. The next month they might be bothered that one boy didn't pick up a skill and might want to do whatever it takes to help him past muster with the SPL.

 

I personally have no problem with a 14 year old Eagle Scout, my PL was one of those, and he was a great guy because he seemed to have all the time in the world to make sure we knew our stuff. If your son is one of those, sit back and enjoy the show and start saving up for the big ticket items he'll be asking for!

[Eagledad]

After reading your last post Scoutfish, I think I have a better understanding of your question. You are looking at your FCFY schedule as a BSA document for getting the best performance from your scouts. I dont think there is a BSA offical or BSA suggested FYFC schedule. I could be wrong, but I think the one you are trying to follow is likely a Troop FCFY schedule, which is OK.

 

Your troop has likely developed the schedule for their own annual program and camping schedule. I dont know that we really can answer your question for your troop program, we can only say how we do it in our own troop.

 

There are some really good replies to your question. If you could ignore for a moment the schedule part of your question, read and try to understand more the philosophical reasoning folks are giving you about the advancement part of the program and how it fits in the whole of the program.

 

I do understand that you have to look at the program from the face presentation of it because you dont have enough experience to look at it from the big picture. You are kind of at the mercy of your troop program. But with that in mind, you have to consider how to ask questions on this forum so that you dont find yourself more confused or conflicted with your program. You may not have enough experience to take advice from the forum and merge it with your troop.

 

The suggestions of just sitting back and observing your troop for a while is sound wisdom. Try to see how the some of the parts work together for the whole of the scouts adventure. Get a feel for the difference between how getting assigned a Position of Responsibility is different from the experience of real leadership. See if you can understand where learning a few knots might develop some character. And amongst all that, are the scouts enjoying their experience. I mean are they really enjoying scouting. Do the boys go home thinking I like myself when Im in the Troop?

 

You see, FCFY is only a suggestion from National and I think the schedule your scouts are following is how your Troop is using that suggestion. Asking a question on this forum about FCFY may likely is not getting the you the right answer you need because our program doesnt follow the suggestion they way yours does. The best you get (and its pretty good stuff) is philosophical foundations of how FCFY fits in our complicated programs using the Eight Methods of Scouting. Have you read the Eight Methods of Scouting? They are the principles to reaching the Three Aims of Scouting. In my program, the adults are responsible for the three Aims, and the Scouts are responsible for the Eight Methods. Thats how my program works, but its not how everyones works.

 

Keep asking the questions so that you can learn, just be leery that our replies may not fit well in your program. Give yourself some time to observe and see what this scouting stuff is all about.

 

And for goodness sake, have fun.

 

I love this scouting stuff.

Barry

 

[Eagle92]

'Fish,

 

To quote Yoda, "Always in motion the future is."

 

I knew a Scout who planned to get Eagle at 13 just like his Eagle cousin. He was delayed getting First Class b/c his SM wanted him to take First Aid MB with a specific MBC at summer camp. So he didn't get FC until 14-15 months into the program. At the time First Aid MB was required for FC.

 

He was on track to get Eagle at 14 but somethings happened. While he was having a blast with his troop, he was presented with other challenges that were fun outside of his troop: advance leader training, OA, Jambo, Canadian trip, etc. Also the "Fumes" hit: i.e. perfume and carfumes, and while he still attended troop meetings, he didn't do as much camping and wasn't focused on getting the last 2 MBs needed for Eagle.

 

Finally at 17.5 my SM gave me a swift kick in the butt that made me realize I had had 6 months to get Communications and Personal Management MBs as everythign else was completed long ago, try age by 14. So I was one of the "deathbed" Eagles getting the last requirement signe doff 5 days before 18, and having the BOR at 18.

 

While it's good to have goals, the scouts do need to be flexible and...

 

...HAVE FUN!

[perdidochas]

I interpret First Class in First year to mean that a troop, at minimum, should have 10+ outings a year, to allow a scout to get First Class in the First Year. The rest of the requirements should come naturally in 10 outings.

[Beavah]

Can youi still use the first year to 1st class checksheet even if you move at a slower place or do you follow another plan?

 

Yah, hmmm.... like others, I'm wonderin' what in the world a '1st class checksheet' is and why someone hasn't practiced firestarting with it.

 

It brings to mind that gawd-awful 50+ page FCFY curriculum document that ol' BobWhite once brought around. Everything neatly planned out in precise 10-minute increments so that kids got to experience all the requirements at some point durin' the year.

 

Da thing of it is, it's not about experiences, eh? It's about becoming experienced. The recognition of a patch is nuthin' next to the pride yeh feel when yeh can genuinely do something. Having an experience of guided bike-riding is nuthin' next to the experience of being able to ride a bike.

 

From back in '89-'90 when FCFY was first rolled out, I said that with an average troop program it just wasn't possible to get most kids to First Class in a Year. How could it be when it was originally designed to be the top achievement of scouting over a three year period? The only way to do it in a year is to dumb it down. As Eagle92 points out, just lookin' at the cooking requirements demonstrates that FCFY is not possible, eh? That's before yeh get to First Aid or water skills, where FCFY forces a unit into once-and-done or into lecture/demo "discuss what to do" rather than "be able to do."

 

So to answer the question, if someone gave "the first year to first class schedule" to a bunch of boys, that was somethin' they made up, not somethin' they got from the BSA. But if the lads adopted it as their plan, then I think yeh go with it for a bit. I have no doubt that as long as the adults don't push it it will be less than 3 months before the boys decide that goin' fishing, chasing butterflies, climbing trees, playin' capture the flag and all the rest are more fun than sittin' in yet-another-first-aid-class. So at that point, yeh let 'em do all those things, and then along the way teach this one how to make a good pancake and that one how to set up the dining fly and then they show the other lads and it becomes fun to camp, with the learning being just part of the adventure.

 

What you'll find is the boys love it, but they will "stall" advancement-wise for a while at different points. That's natural. The way of boys is the same way their bodies grow - in spurts. Periods of free play and fun, followed by periods of intense learning and growth, each at different times.

 

Try it, eh? I reckon boy you and the boys will find it's much more natural and fun.

 

If you're welded to a schedule and yeh can't get free of it, then I think if yeh just slow down you'll need to be thoughtful about it. Leastways up here in the north yeh have to be mindful of the seasons, eh? Slowin' down might put yeh in the wrong season for some activities.

 

Beavah

 

[bacchus]

I see very good points here, so let me add to it.

 

I've reviewed the T-2-1 requirements a number of times, with a number of boys, and believe that if you don't do all of that on an annual basis, the boys are not getting the full program. Those requirements are the basics, the foundation, of what they need to be successful older scouts.

 

I would NOT suggest making an advancement sheet that they, or you, check off for them to earn the ranks. This will make their "fun" seem more like schoolwork, and we know how that ends up...

 

Furthermore I have noticed that the boys who have not earned 1st Class within a year end up progressing very slowly throughout the remainder of their youth in scouting. I'm not sure why, it has just been a trend I have noticed.

 

Whether you want to hold the boys back by not signing off on something until they have mastered it enough to teach it to somebody else is another topic for another thread.