eagle project rejection

[KC9DDI]

So I may be wrong, but the role of the District Advancement Committee to provide guidance and ultimately approval for the Eagle Scout project. It's not their role to question or challenge which program a boy is registered in (Boy Scouts vs Varsity vs Venturing vs Lone Scouts), and it's not their role to verify registration status either. It's not really their role to evaluate the Scout on the other Eagle requirements. Just approve the project, or provide feedback on how to improve the project, right?

 

So while I understand that you're not very happy with this Lone Scout situation, (and I can understand why), it doesn't seem like something that your committee should be wrapped up in. Did the Scout already present the project, and did you approve it? If yes, then why are you wanting to "summon" him back before board, to just repeat a bunch of work that he (and you) already did? How does the registration technicality affect his project at all? And why does your committee need to be involved in it - it sounds like it was correctly resolved with the council registrar, right?

 

Can I ask: say this Scout was a Boy Scout from a "normal" troop, and came before your committee. Say you later find that, for some reason, his name wasn't on the current charter, and he's not technically registered. Would you make him jump through a bunch of hoops getting his project re-presented and re-approved and re-everythinged? Or just advise him to get the paperwork straightened out with the Council?

[Twocubdad]

I am usually a strong proponent of the "don't make kids pay for adult mistakes" theory and in the case of the older kid would probably give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

But to misquote Supreme Court Justice Something-er-other, BSA policy is no suicide pact. This mom is perpetuating an out-and-out fraud. The council should gow a pair, revoke the boy's bogus lone scout membership and tell him to go find a troop.

 

[MoosetheItalianBlacksmith]

KC9DDI:If hes not registared as a Scout he cannot do an Eagle Project. If hes not registared as a scout an Eagle Project cannot be given to him. SO by stating that way....they do not have legal projects.

 

Sombody brought the issue to our DE's atention and he then passed it on to us to deal with because its an Eagle Project/Eagle Rank issue.

 

This has nothing to do with the Lone Scout function Although that is adding to the headache. Weve had people from some of the other types of scouting come before the board with no issues.

 

And no the issue was not correctly resolved....We only have 1 council Registrar and he was tricked into submitting the application. Our DE did not approve them for lone scouts. Because there is a troop 5 minutes from where they live that he wanted them to go to. Their old Troop folded. Needless to say the DE has had a serious talk with the Registrar.

 

Our board also looks in on projects and determines if a scout has Earned the eagle Rank. That means certain rules need to be followed. Out-and-out Fraud as twocubdad appropriatly called it does not an Eagle scout make.

 

Based on some of the facts its become apparent that the boy was playing along with the scam.

 

So as Council Said were 100% right and hed need to get it reapproved ect ect. but they wont back us up or enforce it.

[moosetracker]

For all I know the registrar may have backdated the registration also. I know that has happened before, don't remember the full of it, but I do know our old troop sat on some paperwork (probably getting signature of COR or something) The check and paperwork stated a date 2 months prior to when we got the paperwork to them, the registration was backdated to show the scout had joined 2 months prior.

 

If the registration now looks like they register in January (when their old troop officially folded).. Then there will be nothing to hang them on about a period of time not registered. They will look like they never skipped a beat.

 

My question is, shouldn't there be a signiture by DE or someone at council level to register as a Lone Scout?.. It is almost like applying to be your own mini troop. Someone should approve if there is a valid reason for signing up to be a lone scout..

 

From what I see the council is going about it right. It is like the police, who know a criminal when they see one, but they haven't done enough to make a charge stick.. Give them a little more rope and let them hang themselves on something that will stick..

 

KC9DDI - The lone scout and the non-registration are just part of a pattern along with other things this mother is doing, that show that she is earning the Eagle award for her son, the son is not doing much accept following mom.. Dollars to Donuts, all the promoting with the defunct troop where with posters and newspaper & radio ads that were place by Mom.. Scout may have seen the ad campaign mom was putting out, but that is it. The advancement board is charged with ensuring the scout has earned the rank of Eagle. It is not happening in this case and they know it is not.

 

[KC9DDI]

MIB & Moose - All of this business worrying about registrations seems like it's well outside your duties as they pertain to reviewing and approving Eagle Projects. You're role is limited to assisting the Scout in completing one specific requirement. Concerns over his registration status were (appropriately) handled by the registrar - there's no reason for the advancement committee to worry about it.

 

If hes not registared as a scout an Eagle Project cannot be given to him. SO by stating that way....they do not have legal projects.

 

Who's "giving" an Eagle project to anybody? The Scout makes a proposal, the district either approves or rejects it. The talk about "legal projects" sounds like a technicality - and, as you know, the Guide to Advancement specifically instructs advancement committees NOT to penalize Scouts solely on technicalities.

 

My question is, shouldn't there be a signiture by DE or someone at council level to register as a Lone Scout?.. It is almost like applying to be your own mini troop. Someone should approve if there is a valid reason for signing up to be a lone scout.

 

Good questions, but outside your duties as they pertain to assisting the Scout in completing one specific requirement (ie, the Eagle Project.) And, as you know from reviewing the BSA's material on the Lone Scout program, really the only "valid reason" that is needed to register as a Lone Scout is that the Scout and his family decide that they want to participate in Scouting through the Lone Scout program. It doesn't matter if there's a troop five minutes away or not. The DE really has no say in it - and the advancement committee definitely has no say in it.

 

I understand that the Scout may not be putting in his fair share of work in this case - but surely you've dealt with that before? But I still don't think you're justified in harassing the Scout by summoning him back before your "board" to present a project that you've already approved! I don't blame the council for not "enforcing" this.

 

I have to ask again - what if this was a Scout in a "normal" troop? And for some reason his name wasn't on the most recent charter? Would you handle this the same way? Or be content to just fix the paperwork technicalities and get him registered, and move on?

 

To me, giving this family this much grief over the Lone Scout status is not that much different from harassing a Scout over joining Troop 123 instead of Troop 456. Or challenging a Scout for working on Eagle in a Venturing Crew, rather than in a troop.

 

None of this affects your job at the project approval phase - you either approve the project, or guide the Scout on how to improve it. Other things like registration can be handled by other people.

 

 

[moosetracker]

KC9DDI - you fail to comprehend entirely the situation by harping on the registration and Lone Scout enrollment..

 

Fortunately someone at the National level did pick up on the problem with the situation and must be a quiet observer.. He has asked for more information, to take the case to the national level, even though our Council is not, for the very fact they don't think we have enough evidence that National will back us.. Perhaps you have a few words for him as to how it is not the concern of the Advancement board to make sure an Eagle award is earned honestly? Not sure if his interest is for case study to tighten rules around this practice, or to deal with this particular case..

 

Council is also 100% in favor of our district watching this scouts project as intensely as possible, and they will step in and back us, if they feel our Advancement board gets enough evidence of wrong doing..

 

If this was a scout in another troop.. And it was clear by indication at the Eagle Board, or by report from other scouters that the boys parents were doing the project for the scout.. Yes they would get a lot of "surprise" visits from the Eagle board during their project..

 

And yes, my husband and son have on occasion, pulled an adult aside, to have a talk about who was running the project.. A troop though has a few more checks and balances a Committee Chair or "active" COR can call out a ScoutMaster who is running their sons project.. Likewise a ScoutMaster can call out a wayward parent who is interfereing in their childs project..

 

When the scout is set up as a Lone Scout, with their only overseer being the parent who is doing the work on behalf of their child, it adds an extra problem, of having to be more diligent about having outside eyes overseeing the project.

 

The Advancement Board will probably give a little more presence at the other lone scouts Eagle project, just because they have no outside adult leaders overseeing it.. But unless the parents of this scout give them signs to start worrying about them also, it will not be the type of presence that the scout of helicopter Mom will have.

 

Therefore if it was simply the registration, and the lone Scout enrollment, why isn't the board wanting to "harrass" both scouts equally?

 

Sounds like you are all in favor of the Eagle award being handed out like candy whether the boy deserves it or not?.. Why is that?(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

[KC9DDI]

Moose - What I'm saying is that Scouts should be treated fairly by the District representative who reviews Eagle projects. I'm not aware of any provision made that allows a district "Eagle Board" to summon a Scout to "re-appear" to re-present a project that the board already approved. To try to force a Scout to do so is unfair.

 

What has changed between the time you approved the project, and right now? Is it only this question as to his registration status, which has already been resolved? How does that affect the quality of his project plan? Why was it approved in the first place if you were concerned about it? It is simply not fair to the Scout to try to force him to re-present his already-approved project to the district - and the Advancement Guidelines don't seem to provide any provision for allowing the District to make this requirement.

 

I'm also not familiar with any provision for the "Eagle Board" to arrive uninvited, unannounced at an Eagle project? At my own Eagle project, any uninvited visitors would have been turned away by the organization I was working for.

 

Sounds like you are all in favor of the Eagle award being handed out like candy whether the boy deserves it or not?.. Why is that?

 

I'm in favor of the Eagle award being handed out to qualified youth who meet the requirements for the award. I'm not in favor of an "Eagle Board" overstepping their duty and authority by giving a Scout a run-around about whether or not his approved project is really approved, showing up uninvited at his Eagle Project, or questioning which program he is registered in.

 

The Guide to Advancement makes it pretty clear as to what the role of the District or Council regarding reviewing Eagle Projects.

[MoosetheItalianBlacksmith]

Our Board assignes everybody an advisor when they get their projects approves (very common in other areas too) and told that at that time the will be trying to get to any pieces of the project they can get too. This is because in order to advise the project and later to have a referance point as to wether he did it or not we need to see the work. So its not Really un annouced....it announced at the begining then they are also told they should be informing their advisor of every work day so they can come.

 

Wed do this with any of boy because as they were unregistered they could not have had an Eagle Project approved....they could have a service project approved. But you need to be a scout to work on an EAGLE project. So right now tecnicly they have a service project not an Eagle project.

 

Were not in this to keep people from Eagle were here for the boys....but Eagle Scout is a big deal and if they are going to do it...it should be done correctly. We try and be as fair as possible and wever heard of numerous other eagle boards that alot harsher and I feel are unfair to the boys. but ive also heard of some that are so lax a 2 year old could get approved.

 

We try our hardest to work with the boys and make sure things are done correctly but not make it too much of a hassle for them. If we need to conveen a board at a boys house during the week for an emergency reason weve done that too. Its for the boys but it isnt a gimmee.

 

Our board DOES NOT just deal with projects....we approve the Eagle scout rank and we want to make sure that if you get eagle you deserve eagle. That being said with the help we give very few people who come for an Eagle Board of review get turned down....even if there were mistakes in the project. We make note of them and let them know to be careful of them in the future.

 

For us there has to be a big issue or lack of leadership for them to be turned down.

 

We try and stay as fair as possible.

[moosetracker]

So, if people from the outside go to this fundraiser, and find the scout is doing the project and the mother is staying out of it and report favorably, you have no issue.. But, if they go to the project and find the Mother doing the project and the son maybe doing some form of help, or perhaps not even present, as he had a date with his girlfriend, the thing to do is to not to bud in, allow the mom to run the Eagle project and earn her son the award.. It is no one concern how the Eagle award is earned..

 

If not, then with no troop (Scout Master, ASM, committee Chair) to oversee the scout is responsible for running their own project, who do you propose is responsible to make sure the Eagle project is carried out by the Scout.. The Mom? who has listed herself as the advisor, and is doing the project for him?

 

Why do you think that browbeating or tricking the registrar into enrolling them as lone scout.. I don't know how a Lone Scout should register, but I doubt this is the proper procedure.. Maybe you are right, there is not definition around this type of enrollment. It may be the reason for National looking into the case, to tighten the rules around how one becomes a registered Lone Scout.. I would be surprised if they really got involved in this, case.. But I can see them using it for a case study to tighten up loose strings..

 

If the scout is doing his project right, and the mother just is a worker-bee then there will be nothing that will impede this scouts process.. You make it sound like the Eagle Board is going to go out of it's way to ensure failure by this scout.

 

If for your Eagle project, you are holding a fundraiser that you are promoting for everyone to come to, then why would you bar other Scouters from attending, simply because you do not want them to see what you are doing?

 

Most scouts are very proud of their projects and excited to have people from the board visit so that they can show off.. Why shouldn't they? If they are doing their Eagle project correctly, they will have alot to be proud of.

[Twocubdad]

KC9 -- where, exactly does that authority lay? Would the scout be better off if the project review folks kicked the can down the street and the problem wasn't caught until the boys' Eagle apps were reviewed? How would that work for the boy who is a month away from 18? Or do you just give them a pass at every step of the way?

 

I really think we're all debating this from a position of ignorance as none of us seem to really understand lone scouting and the checks and balances within that program. Have they met the requirements for a lone scout or not? From our perspective of the traditional program, it does seem this mom and Scout are skirting all the normal procedures. If I were in MIB's position, I would be right there with him, demanding some answers and mad as hell that the council registrar went along with this fraud.

 

Until someone explains the particulars of Lone Scouting advancement, MIB and his district advancement committee are standing up for the integrity of the program as they understand it. Good for him.

 

The way Moose and MIB's council handles Eagle projects and BORs is different from mine, but given their situation, I don't think they are out of bounds. Personally, I don't care for district-only EBORs precisely because the district folks know very little about the scout. But if you're going to go with that method, it is reasonable that someone from the district get involved with the boy's project.

[moosetracker]

It is not district only EBORs, other people are invited to sit on the board.. Maybe not people with no connection to Scouting.. And No, not a person in their own troop, But they will invite people from different units to sit in from time to time, just so they can get to know the process, and the district gets to know them.

 

Then sometimes, if the person is excellent on the board, they may ask him to join and become a regular. My husband originally joined this way, he was going up for some board, may have been my son's or may have been someone else, but they asked him to sit on the board that the scout from his troop was not going to be on.. (Unless a very quiet night they usually split and run two seprate boards to move people through faster, while taking the time deserved on each scout.)..

 

Before being part of the Advancement board, I know my troop and we as parents were greatful for the Eagle project comeing before the Eagle Board. It got the scout to know what the Eagle Board looked like, and helped calm their nerves about an "unknown" when they went for the second time and the true EBOR.. Sort of like a dry run.. (If I am not mistaken, I think that is why they do run it that way..)

 

In the end, only one member of the board is normally chosen to oversee the project.. Normally chosen because they live closest to.. Then though they are invited by the scout to a few things, it is lucky if they can show up to one thing, due to having their own personal life, and possibly still being involved with their own troop. When they show up, it is normally not for the whole day, but for an hour or two..

 

Normally Adult leaders are happy to see people from the district branch take and interest in them and their unit.. I know both husband and son have received Thank-yous for showing up both informally and formally in a letter or email.. They also are invited to many ECOR's..

 

KC9 - For you to have such a dislike to any district interferance, you must really hate and distrust those who are district members.. Luckily our district has a healthy working relationship with those who are at the unit level.

[KC9DDI]

For you to have such a dislike to any district interferance, you must really hate and distrust those who are district members

 

Actually, Moose, I am a district member, complete with the silver loops and everything. But I think the issue is we just have a different idea of what the role of the district should be with regard to the Eagle process.

 

In my opinion, the district should be offering a variety of resources to its units. We'll provide some round table content, some commissioners who can help you out when you ask for it, some fundraising opportunities, some day camps and summer camps and other district-wide events, some recruiting ideas and help, and some training opportunities. If these resources help you with your program - great, that's why they're here. If not, no sweat. So with the exception of the very few things that require district involvement (like the one level of approval on the Eagle Scout project), I don't like to force any unit or individual Scout to alter their program for my sake. I'm really not that important, even with the silver loops ;-)

 

So in a way, you're half right: I do dislike any and all district interference in areas where we have no business - like auditing Eagle Scout projects or summoning Scouts to re-appear before our "board" so we can unapprove and then reapprove a project that we already approved once before. Districts should be resources to enhance an individual unit's program - not tribunals that arbitrarily evaluate and judge advancement or program quality. There's just no basis for a district to do that legitimately.

[MoosetheItalianBlacksmith]

which is great for you thanks for serving.....and id love to work with you someday but at the same time differnt councils and districts run differently depending on the people in the area or what they have found works best for Their area.

 

Im happy for you if the Eagle board in your area has found it doesnt need to do anything extra.

 

As MT

 

said In the end, only one member of the board is normally chosen to oversee the project.. Normally chosen because they live closest to.. Then though they are invited by the scout to a few things, it is lucky if they can show up to one thing, due to having their own personal life, and possibly still being involved with their own troop. When they show up, it is normally not for the whole day, but for an hour or two..

 

Normally Adult leaders are happy to see people from the district branch take and interest in them and their unit.. I know both husband and son have received Thank-yous for showing up both informally and formally in a letter or email.. They also are invited to many ECOR's..

 

this works well for our district because they see that the district is not this big evil thing...which ive notices is a common theme with scouters. that higher the area District, Council, Nation the less they trust them.

 

by meeting they see that district is just a bunch of normal scouters like them and are happy that it has taken intrest in them.

 

We are careful to not add to requirments but we do run the board the way weve foundit works best. If fantastic new ideas come in we are very likly to instute them whime making sure we dont ad to requirments.

 

Like i said we are here and doing this for the boy and we want to help them any way we can. Hopefully both of us can share at least in that. Even if we disagree on how to do so.

[MoosetheItalianBlacksmith]

I want to apologize to Eisely for accidentily hijacking their post.

[moosetracker]

Well we offer all that too. But they come to us for training. They come to us for camporees, Camps etc.. Our UC promotes someone in the unit being the units UC (I disagree with that one myself..).. So except for FOS, and maybe camp promotion (when we want something from them). They don't see anyone visiting their units.

 

I have met people resistant to the visits of the promoters, but I have yet to see anyone not wanting a friendly visit because they care about the scouts or care about their program.