Lost handbook @ BOR

[Eagle92]

Nut,

 

Problem with the note idea is that it is not official, wheras the BSHB is.

 

When I council was reviewing my records after mt EBOR, even though all the dates of when I earned the Skill Awards, MBs, and ranks was listed and dated on my Eagle Scout Application, and I had my EBOR's signatures on the application and advancement report, they would not approve my Eagle b/c their records were messed up. In spite of me using my BSHB to fill out the stuff, they wanted a copy of my BSHB records to verify my Eagle, and update their records. No they didn't take the word on my CC, the previous dist. adv. chair., and the current dist. adv. chair. that I fullfilled all the requirements. They wanted a copy of the official records.

 

Ditto with my scout. He passed his EBOR, but because the council records were still messed up, they had him still listed as a First Class Scout. They would not update his records using the Eagle Scout Application and Advancement Report with theh EBOR's signatures on it, all of which were based upon his BSHB. We had to turn in a copy of his BSHB records, and a copy of the ARs that we had on him, in order to correct their records and verify that he did earn Eagle.

 

So I do respectfully disagree with you on the note idea.

 

That said, I agree that it should be a teaching moment. I also agree that the BOR should go on, and that a new HB be filled out fast. If some of the requirements were based upon the older BSHB, I'd find someone with a blank copy of it, photocopy the old records section, and then use the troop's records, whether TROOPMASTER electronic records, or the old Troop Record Books that you got every year (which the council also would not accept BTW), to fill it in for the Scout's use.

[Tampa Turtle]

Hmmm...good question.

 

We would still do it; especially at 1st Class and below. We would stress the importance of it as a sign of them taking it seriously, as his official record. We tell our boys that when there is a conflict between a signed off book and our electronic Troopmaster record the book wins. It is their best defense. We urge them (and their parents) to copy/scan the advancement pages.

 

We would tell the boys to appear with your book, just like we tell them to wear your uniform with proper rank and POR. But if they didn't we might give them a gentle reminder, ask them to look for it, and come around later. If they insisted or there was a urgent deadline we would probably go forward and err on the boys behalf.

 

Boys will be boys. They will lose stuff. Qwazse is on the right track--I think asking the boy is a method.

 

[BadenP]

 

While the handbook is good to have at the BOR, as another poster said it is NOT required. He should be able to easily get an advancement report from his troop before the BOR, and this should be discussed at the SM conference beforehand to prevent this slipup from ever occurring.

 

By the way the boy scout handbook is not the "official" record of advancement, it is just one of several sources, whereas the troop advancement record is official. The handbook could be easily filled in by the scout with some scribbled initials and a date, it is a secondary source at best.

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, we adults are funny critters, eh? We seem to have an obsession over bureaucratic paperwork. Troopmaster this and handbook that. What is "official" paperwork vs. "unofficial" paperwork.

 

It's all a bunch of balderdash.

 

The BSA doesn't define anything as official paperwork other than internet advancement/advancement report forms. A troop can use the handbook to record requirements, or not. Frankly, the books are a bit of a pain to haul around into the field all the time where most requirement signoffs would occur, and the pages tend to fall out a lot. A troop can use it's own record keeping, issue colored beads, use an iPhone, rely on the patrol scribe, whatever. Heck, a troop can even dispense with the whole paperwork game and just have a weekend rank test and if the lad completes everything that weekend he gets the rank right away with no need for a paperwork bureaucracy at all.

 

If we spend any more time on decidin' what's official paperwork than we spend meetin' the real needs of the boy in front of us, we're doin' it wrong.

 

Beavah

 

[Scouter.]

I would...

 

1) buy him a new HB ...yeah I know they are not cheap, but I've waste more $ on lots worse.

 

2) Sit down with him, ASM's, or anyone that would help me piece it back together.

 

3) Work on filling in gaps, if any, and get that boy back in for another BOR.

 

4) ...Checks and Balances...make sure my kids Advancement is recorded by the troop as the go.

 

5) Make sure that boy continues with scouting and feels go about it and no embarrassed.

 

...and I'd do it quick.

 

S.

 

 

[KC9DDI]

Yah, we adults are funny critters, eh? We seem to have an obsession over bureaucratic paperwork....

It's all a bunch of balderdash.

 

Well, Scouting in general is "all a bunch of balderdash." It's just a youth group with some arbitrary program attached. The idea is that by participating in some of these arbitrary programs and requirements, the boys might learn something of lasting value. ("a game with a purpose", if you will.)

 

Keeping track of your handbook is a mostly arbitrary requirement (not entirely arbitrary, as the record of rank advancement is at least significant.) Nothing wrong with a having a bit of a teachable moment when a handbook goes missing - "Well, eventually we'd like to see you in a leadership position, where you'd have to be responsible for troop-owned equipment, funds, and maybe even some paperwork. Part of showing the troop that you're ready for that kind of responsibility is to keep track of your own equipment. Cool. Now, how did the five mile hike go for you? How are things going in your patrol..."

[BadenP]

 

KC9, KC9, KC9,

 

Are you going to tell us you never lost anything important in your life???

 

The BSHB after numerous outings starts to look like some worn out artifact dug out of the ground, in fact I have had scouts in my old troop present their handbooks to me and when you opened it the pages fell out in a heap, in other words it was well used. That's why IMO a freshly printed out troop advancement report of some kind is vastly superior to a mud soaked handbook, especially at an EBOR, where the committee doesn't have the time to thumb through a boys entire handbook. The very fact the boy is advancing means he is engaged in the scouting program so why should the adults throw roadblocks in his path??

[KC9DDI]

Baden, Baden, Baden

 

Yes, I've lost some important stuff from time to time. Thing is, there were always consequences. Hopefully the consequences were something simple, like a monetary penalty to replace a missing Drivers License. Other consequences were worse, like losing the trust of people whom I respect.

 

Sure, the handbook isn't always the most reliable way of tracking advancement, for all those reasons you've mentioned. However, the OP states that his (or her) particular unit requested many times that the Scout copy his records into a more robust format, so that he could Be Prepared for this type of situation. It seems like a reasonable responsibility that this Scout was entrusted with. And, objectively, he did not follow through on that responsibility. This doesn't mean that he's a terrible person, a terrible Scout, or doesn't deserve to advance - but maybe it means there's an opportunity for some mentoring between the adult leadership and the Scout in this particular case.

 

why should the adults throw roadblocks in his path

 

Right, so this is the kind of hyperbole that got me a bit frustrated in that thread about uniforming. At no time did I ever suggest throwing roadblocks into his path, (or throwing them anywhere else for that matter). Maybe somebody else made such a suggestion - but it's probably more worthwhile to direct this at that particular person, rather than at me :-).

[BadenP]

KC9

 

That last quote was not directed at you rather the core group in this situation and the lack of prep by the SM. Isn't that what the SM conference is for, to make sure the boy is ready for the BOR? That is also a good learning moment, if necessary. When I was a SM doing conferences I had a checklist to go over with the boy, including making sure he had all the info handy that might be asked of him at the BOR. I will never understand why some SM's do not go that extra simple step to make sure the boy is prepared, those are the obstacles I was talking about.

[Eagle92]

All I can say folks is that in the two cases I've been involved in with council records being so messed up that the scouts involved would not get their Eagle, despite passing their EBORs, the advancement section of the BSHB was used to fix the council's records. I turned in photocopies of photocopies of the section, and my scout turned in copies of of his mud soaked, torn up, well used BSHB.

[eisely]

All due respect Beavah, but I think it is somewhat disingenuous to dismiss the record keeping issue as "balderdash." There are many ways to skin this particular cat, but the need for good record keeping is essential to the entire advancement method.

 

As I think about it, every boy scout troop that I ever dealt with had some kind of system in place even before the availability of troopmaster and similar softwares. As I see it advancement records exist in three places; (1) the boy's handbook, (2) the records kept by the troop in whatever form, and (3) the records kept by the council.

 

Speaking to the council records first, it is a fact that council records are at best incomplete in many parts of the country. Lacking a fully functional electronic interface, the council has to input by hand all the advancement reports it receives. This has often been a low priority, since the opprotunity to update basic rank records occurs annually with re chartering. Our council is probably better than most. It matters most when a young man is applying for his eagle. Essentially the council gets the final say about this when an application for eagle is submitted for review and sign off by the council. The attitude of the council, and properly so, is that our council records are the only ones that matter to us. Fortunately the ladies at our council who handle this are very down to earth reasonable people who are very much aware of the deficiencies in their records. We have always been able to rectify any discrepancies between the council records and what we knew to be true fairly easily. What I urge eagle candidates to do is get their application signed off at the council at least two weeks before their eighteenth birthday to give time to discover and deal with any discrepancies.

 

Coming to the handbook, I have never considered the handbook to be much more than a temporary record and backup to the troop records. Troops are only asking for trouble if they rely solely or primarily on what is in the handbook. Having said that, another reason that handbooks matter is that this is where the boards of review sign off on all the ranks short of eagle. If a troop lacks other records, this may be the only record, particularly if the council records are incomplete.

 

Regarding records kept at the troop level, we are fortunate to be able to afford a dedicated lap top for this purpose and rely on troopmaster. It took us awhile to get there, but we are much more comfortable that our records are complete, current and accurate. We have also established a culture with the boys of promptly reporting their progress to the advancement coordinator and having the advancement coordinator review their books often.

 

Teaching accountability for anything to boys is not easy, but it is a very important part of what we do. Having the boys buy into the necessity of looking out for themselves and making sure the troop records are current not only benefits the overall program, but instills useful habits in boys. All of this is done in a friendly teaching manner.

 

So balderdash or not, there is value to having a reliable record keeping system, particularly when a young man goes up for his eagle.

[Beavah]

Nah, still balderdash.

 

There are thousands of more fun, more interesting, more lasting ways in scouting to teach boys responsibility or accountability. Eight whole methods and binders full of program helps and miles on miles of God's wide open spaces to be challenged and shared with friends.

 

If we're wastin' it on bureaucratic paperwork trackin' games, we're not doin' it right. That's not Scouting, it's an internship with the IRS.

 

It's not up to a lad to go keep redundant records and xerox pages and set up remote backup servers. The boy does his job by strivin' to learn scouting skills and learning to work with his patrol mates. When he's done his duty, it's our job to Recognize him, not make him fill out forms and copy pages.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

I cannot state how much Eisely is correct in my neck of the woods, esp. in regards to CS advancement. Just got the district advancement report for CS packs, and only 2 have anything listed, one unit I know for sure has the numbers way low. It seems as if teh BS records get in at some point since Eagle is verified by them.

 

But CS, nah they don't need to record it. Only units using Internet Advancment seem to have some advancement going on.

 

Gotta remember, advancement IS one of the methods, " should come a naturally as a suntan, something that just happens in the outdoors," and needs to be kept up to date. If council's records are not up to date, then what are you going to use?

 

Council I was in used the BSHB to update records.

[Callooh! Callay!1428010939]

We could have him walk down an aisle lined on either side by troops' real scouts. As he walked by the scouts would rip the patches off his uniform. At the end of the line would be the SPL; he would confiscate the offender's hiking stave, snap it in two and throw it on the ground. Then the entire troop would ceremonially signal of its rejection of the boy by collectively turning their backs on the former scout as he was escorted away from them, never to be welcomed into the fold again.

 

Then again maybe we'd want to know more before taking the perfunctory disciplinary measures described above. Maybe it'd be appropriate to consider:

"What rank is this?"

"How long has this kid been a scout?"

"How old is he?"

"What's he like?"

"Does this seem like a juncture at which being a little stern might provide a valuable lesson?"

"Does this seem like a juncture at which gentle admonishment is more appropriate?"

We might also ask ourselves... "Selves, why are we talking to ourselves?... but as long as we are, let's ask ourselves some other questions about this situation... like: are we being asked to award this kid a college degree? a Ranger tab? a license to operate heavy equipment or practice some skilled profession? Or are we being asked to award him a Boy Scout rank... Boy Scouts.... hmmm, that's got boys in it don't it? Are boys known for their highly developed pre-frontal coritices? For their superior cognitive function? Or are they often a bit squirrelly? OK, squirrelly or not, Boy Scouts ought to be teaching boys to be men who don't lose their records... but while they're learning that, they're still boys."

 

There must be enough corporate memory between the boy, his fellow scouts, adult leaders, and his parents to recreate the kid's records.

 

[KC9DDI]

Don't go being reasonable now, CC. 'Round here we either overreact, or don't react at all.