Lost handbook @ BOR

[Second Class]

Thanks for all the replies. A teaching moment, indeed for some who read rules where none exist, except for tradition and we've always done it that way sort of rut.

 

It never ceases to amaze me at how fast some attitudes about advancement change, when their kid is up and gone.

 

 

[JMHawkins]

On my honor, I will do my best

to do my duty to God and my country

and to keep accurate records.

To wear a pressed uniform at all times.

To keep myself physically safe,

organizationally straight, and advancing on schedule.

 

Two.

 

hmmmm, not sure that'll be such a big program draw with the boys.

 

While I agree it's a good thing to teach them to be organized and for them to learn how to keep records (our Treasurer just handed out receipt books to the grubmasters and gave them a quick lesson on how to use them in response to the Scouts asking for some help keeping track of who paid for food and who didn't. We'll see how it goes) it really isn't fair to ask the boys to be more organized than the adults. If Council's records are a fiasco, what right do we have to insist the 12 year old Scout have all his docs in a row?

 

Sure, it's a valuable lesson to teach them that keeping their own records is helpful when some big, faceless and heartless outfit - like a mortgage company, or the IRS - mucks up their info and they have to prove their own case. But do we really want BSA, the Troop, and the adults in it to play the role of the big, faceless and heartless entity?

 

 

[Papadaddy]

When I was trained, we were taught that the signed handbook was the ultimate authority in case of a conflict in records, whether it be the troop's records, or COuncil's. That's all it is. If the handbook is lost and can be reconstructed using troop records that all agree to, then buy a new one and start over. No big deal. I've had scouts go through 3-4 handbooks from the time they cross over until their ECOH. They get lost, wet, torn, and replaced with new editions.

[fred8033]

Interesting discussion. Only a few comments...

 

#1 SMC - It's not the scoutmaster's job at the SMC to make sure every requirement is done. Scoutmaster can do that if he wants, but it's still the BOR's job. Just saying it because as a BOR I would not use a completed SMC as an indication the requirements are complete.

 

#2 BOR has several key focuses. One is that the BOR is the checkpoint to verify that requirements are completed. IMHO, that means also to verify that paperwork is clean and ready to go. But IMHO I view that as a cooperative co-responsibility of the scout and the troop leaders and not an obstacle for the scout to overcome. Help the scout recreate his records and help the scout find evidence that he completed the requirements. Support the scout.

 

#3 In our troop, we've had few handbooks lost over the years ... very few. I've only known one scoutbook that had to be completely re-created and that was because it was destroyed at school through vandalism. A good velcro cover is important.

[Second Class]

Fred, it has always been my impression (and taught so by the previous SM) that it WAS the SM's job to verify the advancement items prior to the BOR.

 

Not to "not believe" you, but can you point me to this in the Guide to Advancement?

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Second Class, consider this,

 

The Scoutmaster conference is a requirement just like any other in the list of requirements for a rank. As as other items in that list, it does not have to be done in the order listed, it just has to be done. Note from the following, taken from the BSA training on Scoutmaster Conferences, it says nothing about verifying the requirements of the rank. Requirements for the NEXT rank are discussed, but not that rank the Board of Review is for.

 

Check the following www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/18-629.pdf

 

"...The Role of the Scoutmaster Conference

 

According to the Boy Scouts of America charter, the purpose of Boy Scouting is to develop in a

young man the ability to do things for himself and for others, to train him in outdoor skills, and to teach him patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues. We use the methods of

Scoutingincluding advancement, the outdoors, and adult associationto accomplish these

goals. The Scoutmaster conference allows the Scoutmaster to review

The Scouts growth in his understanding of Scoutings ideals

How the Scout applies these ideals in his daily life and in the troop

The requirements of the Scouts next rank so that he can be properly encouraged

Why does the Scoutmaster engage in this one-on-one review? The relationship between a Scout

and his Scoutmaster is important for the troops health and for the Scouts success. The

Scoutmaster must watch the troops dynamics to see who is showing leadership, who is holding

back, who is shy, who is working with the younger boys, who is skilled in outdoor activities, etc.

 

Further, the Scoutmaster must watch the individual Scout to determine whether he is advancing,

whether he is having fun, and whether he seems eager or uneasy...."

[Second Class]

Thanks OGE. You answered my question to Fred. On page 3, seventh paragraph, it states:

 

"The scout must have competed all of his requirements for rank before the conference can take place."

 

and

 

"it is appropriate to review the scouts achievements and to discuss them without retesting. This may be the time to check his advancement record for the appropriate signatures."

 

So, based on what I've read from these forum contributors, I am comfortable in my position that if I signed off his Scoutmaster's Conference, the Board of Review head should accept my word that the scout did in fact DO the various items for rank and proceed with the BOR, as

1) it has always been my position that the SM conference is last, and

2) I would not have signed it had the scout have been incomplete.

[BadenP]

Fred and OGE

 

It is indeed part of the SM's responsiblity to make sure that every boy in his troop has everything they need to successfully complete the BOR, and this was discussed in detail in my SM training. OGE, SM's are supposed to be able to think outside the box,that is what leads to a successful and fun filled program for the troop. Just because it is not in print on responsibilities of a SM in a SM conference doesn't mean that he should not make sure the boy is ready and has all his documentation, that is just common sense. No wonder we continue to lose so many boy scouts each year. BSA pub's may not have that aspect listed because they feel a SM should be able to ascertain certain things for themselves.

Once again the handbook is NOT, NOT required for any BOR.

[OldGreyEagle]

BadenP, I was responding to SecondClass and when he said:

 

"Not to "not believe" you, but can you point me to this in the Guide to Advancement"

 

I thought it best to give a reference. Not having a copy of the Guide to Advancement handy, I gave the requested reference by the means possible to me.

 

I agree the Scoutmaster needs to think out of the box and not all things a good scoutmaster does are written, but here, in this situation where it was written was specifically asked for, and I complied.

 

PS I agree the Handbook is not required

 

PS: Second Class, the person who asked the question I answered thanked me for my response. I think THIS time I did alright. My track record has been a tad off these last few days...(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Second Class]

OGE, Fred,

I appreciate the information, the link, and your outlook. Debating a position (either side) make defending a position easier, and more logical.

 

The main point I was concerned with was if a handbook was required for the BOR.

 

It has been proven to me that it is not.

Thank you.

[fred8033]

(sorry... been traveling...)

 

Good discussion. One minor point. Very minor.

 

And it's probably resolved by coordination between a SM and his troop's committee memebers. Perhaps, some troops coordinate such that they use the SM signature as proof that requirements are all complete. But, that's not an automatic.

 

The key point is that a checked off scoutmaster conference is not a guarantee that all the requirements are done. A good SM will discuss previous rank requirements as part of having a conversation with the scout. But, it's the explicit responsibility of the BOR to check requirements, not the SMC. Plus, the SMC is not a pass/fail or even a "completed" thing. It's just a "did you sit with the SM and conference?" If yes, then SMC is done.

 

Purpose of scoutmaster conference

- Review the Scout's growth in his understanding of Scouting's ideals

- Review how the Scout applies these ideals in his daily life and in the troop

- Review the requirements of the Scout's next rank so that he can be properly encouraged

 

 

Purpose of board of review

- confirm the scout has done what the scout was supposed to do

- evaluate scout's acceptance of the scouting ideals

- evaulate troop's effectiveness in presenting the scouting program

- encourage further advancement

 

***************

 

Of course BSA published training is behind (i.e. inconsistent) with the current rules.

 

The newly issued GTA says in section "4.2.3.5 Unit Leader (Scoutmaster) Conference" ... "While it makes sense to hold one after other requirements for a rank are met, it is not required that it be the last step before the board of review."

 

****************

 

Just saying confirming requirements are done is the BOR responsibility. Don't automatically trust a completed SMC to indicate all requirements are done.