Boy Led - Reality check

[Eagle732]

Gee fred I had to answer no to at least half of your questions.

 

Good thing I never claimed to run a troop using the "Boy Led" method

Nope, we use the "Patrol Method"

 

We transitioned form the Boy Led troop to the Patrol Method a few years ago when I got word from my COR that he didn't agree with the Boy Led method. Now everybody's happy!

[fred8033]

IM_Kathy wrote: "I think there is a difference between boy-led and boy-done. To me boy-led means they plan: they decide what they want to do at a campout, where they want to camp to be able to do that, how long they want to stay there. It means they lead: they lead the younger scouts in all the "how to's" of scouting... knots, tents, packing, hiking, reading maps. It means they work together: John wants to canoe, Pete wants to bike, Luke wants to just chill... they agree to have a campout for canoeing, a different one for biking, and either make sure their is chill time at these as well or they plan another campout that is just a chill out campout. our last campout was a chill/rank campout. Some of the boys chilled out and played games - some worked on rank advancement but also chilled out."

 

That pretty much reflects our troop. Boys led - planning and leading activities, camp outs, etc. Boy-done - while at meetings / activities and where scouts can easily coordinate. adult-done - off meeting tasks critical to making sure events happen and to support the troop.

 

For example, adults receive permission forms and money directly from the scouts. It doesn't get handed to the PL, then to the SPL and then to the adult camping coordinator. Adults reserve the sites and pay the bills. Scouts deal with attendance lists during meetings and camp outs. Adults deal with them at other times. Same reason given by IM_Kathy. Scouts are busy and it's hard enough to depend on adults to get things done away from troop meetings. Scouts often have sporting, school, church or personal conflicts.

 

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We do have a PLC(SPL) report to the troop committee. It's a great chance for the adults to get to know what the scouts are thinking and will need in the coming events. The troop committee knows to not debate or hassle scouts during the report. We provide any critical feedback through the SM.

 

The only schedule plan we ever had an issue with was a February camp out where the plan was to hike "DOWN" a mile long steep uneven rocky path to that would be covered with ice and snow. Oh... and the path has a sharp drop off (when you can see it ... not a sheer cliff, but still a sharp angle).

 

We don't mind winter camp outs. That's fun. We just mind risking our lives. We were willing to schedule it if the scouts could find registered qualified leaders who would go with them. Oh and to get to the hiking trail, you have to drive on an un-marked, un-plowed raw dirt trail for two miles ... if you can find it. Not so cool.

 

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qwazse: - mentioned that you want to leverage boys talents. I like the term "progressive responsibility" to give scouts opportunity to grow with a good chance to succeed and to get out of their way when they already know what they are doing.

 

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Thanks everyone for your responses. I has given me much to think about. It's always amazing that "boy led" means something so different to everyone who hears the term. I'll have to look for a local troop that has patrol leaders managing attendance lists, budgets and where the scouts reserve sites, etc. It would be very interesting to learn more.

 

[fred8033]

qwazse - What do you mean when you wrote "Plus, the boys have a responsibility to tend to 11-13 year olds, whereas in the crew any such obligation is voluntary." ???

 

I don't see any difference in troop / crew here. If anything, crews have more responsibility for member to member training.

 

...........

 

This discussion has really opened my eyes to think about changes we could make. Or better ... to have the SM discuss with the SPL and then have the SPL work with the PLC to see what they want to change. I can't see going as far as having scouts reserve camp sites, but there is much we could change.

[shortridge]

Crews are only for boys and girls 14+. Boys 11-13 can't join crews. Crew members are encouraged to teach Boy Scouts the skills and subjects they learn, but not required.

[Eagle92]

I know Quaz can answer for himself, but her is my interpretation of his comment.

 

There are big differences between a 11yo and a 14yo, hence the "older Scout programs" of Sea Scouting, Exploring, Leadership Corps, venture crew/patrols, and Venturing over the years.

 

Unless you instill the concept of 'giving back," or "servant leadership," or whatever you want to call it so that your older Scouts not only do their thing, but also give back by helping and mentoring the younger scouts, there is a tendancy to ignore them.

 

With Venturing, working with peers is the norm, and it is a lot easier for older Venturers to work with the younger ones. They are similar in many ways.

[moosetracker]

Well I have been in a troop that was (to my estimate) successful, then through change of SM turned dismal..

 

Even at our finest, the boys were not doing much financially except for Patrol food costs, and sometimes research pricing for a new or replacement item..

 

The Scribe took the weekly dues and attendance.. This was turned over to the Treasurer (maybe monthly).. And though we tracked events in TroopMaster, we never tracked weekly attendance in TM.. Did the boys?? I doubt it.

 

Calendar Reservations - That was done mostly by Adults.. The boys decided what they wanted, and did the intitial plan of which month.. The actual dates were more fine-tuned around school, Holidays and other calendar conflicts by the Adults.. Sometime the boys inital month was changed too.. Like WW rafting was in a month that the company didn't operate due to low water.. Maybe should have gone back to PLC.. But mostly the adult would swap the May event with the June event without doing so..

 

So I guess by some peoples definition our Troop was "barely" boy-led, to not really.. All this was done with Adult guidence most the time.. And sometimes an adult picked up a ball or two that the Scouts would drop.

 

Now it is worse.. SM makes all the plans, and then cancels them when they are not organized by anyone.. Sometimes SM didn't ask the scouts to organized anything, but didn't aske adults to and he doesn't either.. (Usually it is still the scouts fault for the lack of organization).. Sometime he does ask, but all it is is Bobbie you take care of the rafting trip (end of guidence..) Scout doesn't know where to begin, what to do.. Ball is dropped, event is canceled.. It is the scouts fault...

 

PLC use to plan the weekly meetings some so-so and some awesome brillent work, now at the PLC the SM tells them what they will be doing. (Pretty much "You are my puppets..").. SM still ends up leading most the meetings (his puppets either rebel or have no interest in the assignment..)

 

SM treats the rest of Adult leadership as threats.. He doesn't tell them what they should be doing, or tells them (in email) 24 hours before the trip.. And if they don't do it, it is their fault.. Doesn't matter that they did not get the email until 1 hour before the event, or after the event.

 

Sometimes it's a "Hey! I don't have enough Adult leaders to.. have 2 deep leadership, drive, pull the trailer.. In email 24 hours before.. Then 20 hours before (having only given a 4 hour response.. ) Well I guess since we don't have coverage the event is canceled..

 

 

 

OK.. So.. In my opinion, adults doing some of the finance, and guiding the Scouts, and monitoring to pick up items the scouts kind of dropped the ball on is far better.. Then boy-led - With no guidence (Handing them a huge project with no direction).. Or Adult Lead with an unorganized, disfunctional Adult Leadership..

 

You do what you can with the abilities of your boys. I recommend if you pick up on a boy that will go that extra mile, well cheer him on.. And hope he will set fire to some of his buddies, but give him guidence..

 

If you want to improve boy-led, do so slowly.. One bite at a time.. And with guidence.

 

Don't dump onto the boys that what they are unwilling or incapable of doing everything like a 10 ton boulder, then sit back and let them get squished beneath it's weight. In the meantime, start putting into your Adult leaders head a vision of using their positions to guide and direct rather then do for them (maybe through some trainings on how to guide).. Don't just tell them they have been laid-off from their scouting postion.

 

Anyway that is my two cents..

 

Fred your troop could be alot worse.. And it could become alot worse if you try to get the boys to take on more without a well thought out plan of how to do so.

[Beavah]

 

I've mostly been quiet because I'm the old fellah who was quoted. It's nice of fred8033 to respect us old furry critters, but I don't reckon I deserve to be "very well respected."

 

I think dumping it all on inexperienced scouts with no adult guidance is a recipe for sure frustration.

 

I think this is da seminal insight of the thread, eh? Nobody should view "boy led" as "dump it on them."

 

The original thread from this one involved how dumping a whole bunch of additional stuff on Eagle candidates which they had never seen before was a "recipe for sure frustration" (to borrow mn_scout's line). My claim was that if yeh expect Eagle candidates independently to plan projects, budget for projects, run safety for projects, set up dates and reservations for projects, etc. then they better have been doing those same things for outings and other events with some mentoring and guidance while they were First Class, Star, and Life. Either that or yeh have to do too much adult hand-holdin' to get 'em through it. Any way yeh cut it, just dumpin' it on 'em at Eagle isn't really fair. Da Eagle Project process in a troop should be functionally the same as the outing process.

 

As VeniVidi says, though, it all depends on what your Aims for Scouting are, eh? In your program, do yeh really want boys to become self-confident, independent young men who can do these things on their own, or do yeh have other goals in mind? I've heard folks give eloquent voice to da notion that scouting should just be about getting tastes of things, or being "exposed" to things, and perhaps that's what your Chartered Org. is lookin' for in its program. In that case, yeh have to try to provide a lot of active adult support and mentoring so that da Eagle process is also just an "exposure" to planning and leadership, and be careful not to expect more.

 

Youth ability certainly isn't the issue. Boys definitely are capable of doin' all the stuff fred8033 mentions. In fact, Boy Scouts in many troops most certainly do handle budgeting, financing, reservations and all the rest. Boys doin' that stuff is even part of the Journey to Excellence criteria, eh? So we definitely consider it best practice.

 

Da question is usually one of adult ability and willingness to trust youth and build toward that sort of program. It takes an adult mindset which is really focused on kids rather than on program. If yeh focus on program, then of course it's "better" to have the adults manage the calendar and do the reservations and handle the budgeting and all the rest. At least in our own minds that means it's more likely to get done "right". There's less likely to be problems / cancelations / stuff that isn't perfect etc.

 

In other words, we care more about having a wonderful, well-organized outing than about growing wonderful, well-organized kids.

 

Of course if you're focused on kids, yeh have to meet 'em where they're at. Sometimes with very young or "recovering" troops, yeh do need a bit more adult support for a time. Boys don't go from zero to 90 in a second flat any more than my SUV does. While it takes a bit of time and effort to help the lads learn and grow, more often yeh have to proceed slowly for the adults, eh? It takes more time and effort for us to grow. So goin' from adult led to youth led usually requires a full "generation" to move through in the troop. Yeh need to have a longer-term vision of what yeh want for kids to be able to pull it off.

 

Beavah

 

 

[Engineer61]

"B-P said, "Never do anything that a boy can do for himself." THat about sums it up."

 

Indeed, and times have changed from 1910 and there are different rules now.

[Beavah]

The only schedule plan we ever had an issue with was a February camp out where the plan was to hike "DOWN" a mile long steep uneven rocky path to that would be covered with ice and snow. Oh... and the path has a sharp drop off (when you can see it ... not a sheer cliff, but still a sharp angle). We don't mind winter camp outs. That's fun. We just mind risking our lives. We were willing to schedule it if the scouts could find registered qualified leaders who would go with them. Oh and to get to the hiking trail, you have to drive on an un-marked, un-plowed raw dirt trail for two miles ... if you can find it. Not so cool.

 

Yah, but in the end, what did the boys learn from that? Maybe somethin' about the fickleness or fears of adults, but certainly nuthin' about managing safety, exercising judgment themselves and all the rest.

 

Instead, yeh could have had boys researchin' what gear and experience would be required to negotiate the trail in those conditions, eh? They could have called local hiking clubs or mountaineering groups for information, or at least spoken with the rangers. Maybe some snowshoes with ice crampons. Then they'd look at the rental costs for snowshoes and learn to make a cost/benefit decision. But yeh never know, they also might have found a bored ranger in the wintertime who'd be willin' to come out and guide it just because he/she would love an excuse to get out of the office.

 

Or yeh could have gone out, and had 'em have the experience of how much slower and more challengin' it is to hike in the winter, and of learning how and when to make a "lets not push it any further" decision in the field. Yep, you're there as ultimate back-up, but they're gettin' the lived experience of participatin' in a judgment call. How much does people not being in shape play into it? That's a real incentive for fitness. How much does gear play into it? That's a real incentive for learnin' about and caring for their gear. How much did we overestimate ourselves that we'll have to make sure we don't again? That's a real incentive to pay attention and learn more.

 

As for da unmarked, unplowed dirt trail for two miles, most healthy lads can hike that just fine. Besides, why are the adults doin' the navigation anyways? Navigation is a task for the boys. How else do they learn? It can be a wonderful, safe adventure and learning experience to never even make it back to the trail but just to get lost and camp out along the way. In fact, I bet those boys would remember it longer and learn more than any 10 adult-run "well-organized" campouts.

 

And what do they need to run an Eagle project? The ability to contact others and get information. The ability to consider options and costs and make decisions. The ability to evaluate safety issues and "when to stop". The ability to estimate work and travel times and anticipate difficulties. The ability to lead others in a challengin' task they haven't done before.

 

Sounds familiar, eh?

 

Beavah

 

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Eagle92]

Eng,

 

Only because society doesn't give folks responsibility like they use to. For example at 25 I was married and supporting a wife. BUT under the new healthcare laws that will come into effect 2014, I could have been on my Mom's insurance policy still, even though I was on my own, several states away, and had a FT job.

 

But if you want to really see what the 18-25yo crowd can do when given the opportunity, look to the young men and women in the military. They are truly heads and shoulders above their peers.

 

On a different note, let me tell you about one expereince I had pre-internet.

 

The troop was growing and needed new tents. Now the scouts did all the research: looked at tents locally, read reviews in magazines, talked to friends in other troops, etc. basically a lot of time was spent getting the info on what tents to buy, b/c we had a history of keeping tents a long time.

 

So the tents were picked, the vendor was picked, we just needed an adult to order them for us. So the troop treasurer was given all the info to but them.

 

WWWWWWEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the treasurer had the bright idea that he knew better than the Scouts did. He found a sale on tents locally and bought them. They were popups, i.e. everything connected. They were heavier than what we asked for, more fragile than what we asked for, and you could not buy replacement parts for them as the way they were designed if one part broke, the entire thing was broken. So we had to buy all new tents within 2 of the purchase of the popups b/c they all broke within 2 camp outs. Good news was that after the first campout that they broke on, we figured out how to rig the suckers. with ropes and scout staves.

[fred8033]

Beavah wrote: "Yah, but in the end, what did the boys learn from that? Maybe somethin' about the fickleness or fears of adults, but certainly nuthin' about managing safety, exercising judgment themselves and all the rest."

 

We never said no. We just said they should make sure they had adults to go with them and to find a few to commit early. They asked a few but could not find any willing to commit. It's a brutally tough hike with all your gear in good weather. But Feb can be -20F and I'm sure snow can drift above your head on the trail. Controlling a sled would be really hard. Plus, you might think your on the path and ....

 

....

 

Beavah wrote: "Any way yeh cut it, just dumpin' it on 'em at Eagle isn't really fair. Da Eagle Project process in a troop should be functionally the same as the outing process."

 

dumpin' it on 'em is a loaded mischaracterization. But I don't buy the 2nd part that "eagle project process ina troop should be functioning the same as the outing process." I just don't see that supported in any BSA materials. Doesn't say anything about eagle projects being part of troop meetings, PLC discussion or supported by troop committees. And nothing allowing troops to require eagle candidates to follow established troop policies and procedures.

 

BSA does document that scouts are to be given latitude to strick out on their own and take responsibility for their project.

 

For our troop, our scouts get plenty of experience coordinating, making decisions, taking responsibility, coordinating resources and following thru. Plenty of experience to succeed at their Eagle project. It's a solid program and don't forget the MB experiences too: Personal mgmt, Communications, etc.

 

....

 

I will say that I'm intrigued by this discussion and the many ideas it has raised. I'm not sure what will happen, but I'm sure multiple points from the discussion will influence our troop.

 

 

[shortridge]

Not functioning the same - functionally the same. Following the same process of leadership and planning.

 

"They asked a few but could not find any willing to commit."

 

Easy to guess the lesson learned from that.

[Beavah]

Glad you're thinkin' about it, fred8033. That's what makes for troops that constantly learn and improve, and what's most fun about sharin' here. Right now we're all tryin' to figure out the best ways of usin' the new advancement/Eagle packet stuff. My explanation is just da best explanation I've been able to come up with so far to help people let go of their need for 20 page reports. I'm not claimin' it's the right way or the only way. I'm lookin' for improvements, too. And yeh make a good point that it won't work on units where the regular norm is that the adults do lots of the stuff in troop operations that we expect boys to do on the project.

 

But Feb can be -20F and I'm sure snow can drift above your head on the trail. Controlling a sled would be really hard.

 

Yah, maybe I'm not understandin' this, because it really confused me. Are yeh saying that on Friday night or Saturday morning when they went to leave it actually was -20F and the snow had drifted above their head on the trail? Then I'd expect the Patrol Leaders to re-evaluate their plan based on the conditions, eh? Just like you'd expect an Eagle Scout to re-evaluate the outdoor work day in the open field if there was a full out thunderstorm in progress.

 

If instead you're sayin' that the committee wouldn't put the event on the calendar because it might be bad weather next February, then I think yeh need to get your committee under control. It's not the boys' job to recruit adult leaders and resources. That's what the committee should really be doin' instead of being busybodies guessin' about what the weather might be down the road.

 

Of course 'round these parts -20F is good campin' weather, and yeh love deeper snow for snow shelters. There's also some great plans for buildin' controllable pulk sleds out there.

 

BSA does document that scouts are to be given latitude to strick (sic) out on their own and take responsibility for their project.

 

Not just for their project, eh? For their patrol and all its activities, for the troop calendar and leadership on outings, and all the rest! That's why we call 'em positions of responsibility, eh? They boys are expected to take responsibility.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[moosetracker]

Well the committee cannot force unwilling SM & ASM's to accompany the boys.. You at least need one adult leader registered to the troop (or at least BSA registered).

 

Might they have searched with the boys for someone outside the troop?.. It would have been nice had they worked with the boys a little more before throwing the plan in the trash.. Perhaps at a roundtable they could have found a willing soul to make the journey with them.

 

But, if you have a dangourous trip lined up, how many parents would then be happy to put their son's safety in the hands of two strangers?

 

Well anyway, Beav's right, when adults don't want something to happen the sure fire way to kill it is to lay all the planning at the kids feet, walk away, and wish them luck.. No guidence, no you guys look but we will look too.. No let's see if we can't find a solution together.

 

I know one troop that was with something similar.. In fact I sent one guy to this forum to see if any of you could help them.. It was with rock climbing, they had some very knowledgable adults, but not certified.. Well the adults did turn over lots of stones to look for a certified guy.. I don't think the ever did, and the event never happened.. But, the adults did not lay the task of finding the certified guy at the boys feet. The adults wanted to help them find a solution, and not disappoint them..

 

But, it is a difference of how much the adults have bought into the plan (or not) as to how many stones they will turn over for the boys, (or not).. Easy thing is to not say "No".. but hand the difficult impossible feat of finding qualified leaders outside the troop at the feet of the boys.. Then it is their fault for the event failing.

 

With the rock climbers, Adults & scouts can say they failed at getting the event to happen. But,the scouts will know that the Adults tried their hardest to help..

 

I will not fault the adults in your troop for not wanting to go.. Maybe Beavah would. But, if you know your limits, and would not trust yourself to lead or be responsible for the scouts during that high risk adventure.. And, you would spend a miserable weekend hating every minute of the event.. Then, volunteer is volunteer.

 

Just, perhaps a little more work with them to find someone.. Having them come to one (or a few) meetings to see if the parents are comfortable with their qualifications.. Registering them if they are not already registered with the troop the town over.. Sure, the possibility of getting all the ducks lined up in a row to work, would have been slim.. I would say that your troop even with adults backing the boys would have had a hard time pulling it off.

 

But, the difference is will the boys from the rock climbing group trust their adult leaders to dream big again, and try something else different (maybe scuba diving next time).. I would bet that the adults did not loose their troops respect because they tried hard, even if they failed.. How about your boys? Have they proposed any big dreams since then, or only events they know they have adults in the troop with personal interest in the subject matter to make happen for them?

 

Sometimes troops do fall into activities the Adults enjoy for this reason. SM likes hiking so it is a predomantly hiking troop. SM likes aquatics it's a aquatics group.. SM likes camping.. Then the boys who join are of similar intrests to the SM, or they join a different troop. NOW the boys with intrests similar to the SM may then plan the events..

 

May happen anyway, a trip requiring you to look outside your troop adult leadership, would be hard to do montly.. But, then again, if you got a reputation as a troop with high adventure activities, you might get the interest of people in the community with no sons in the troop, but a love of high adventure. You never know.

 

Never know Wouldda.. Couldaa.. Shouldaa.. But, this is one event out of many successful ones.. It is not the majority of events (like my old troop currently can claim).

 

Personally Fred I would put your troop at a rating of normal.. Where as if Beavah & Shortridge maybe have exceptional troops.. Sure you can slowly ease into some of the easier things.. Attendence by the boys to be handed to an adult, Sign-up sheets by the boys.. Maybe let the boys do some of the trip planning with the guidance of the outdoor Adult leader.. Things like that could be goals to strive for.. Do you need to be in the same class as Beavah & Shortridge? No.. Take your troop to where you are comfortable at being.. I think all troops should have a goal of improvement to work for, there is always room for improvement.. Even Beavah's & Shortridge I am sure have troops that need improvement somewhere.

[qwazse]

Ya, sure. Make the boys do more paperwork and table any real working independence. The boys will love you for that!

 

If you are going to "ease" your way into more youth leadership. Give them a serious responsibility. Choose a real route to hike. Collect real money. Buy real food.