SIgning Blue Cards

[Twocubdad]

Yeah, I suppose if your model for dealing with boys is a bull in a china shop, then you're probably right. If you think the only two answers are either yes or no, then you probably do see Scoutmasters who take seriously their obligation to mentor, advise and guide Scouts to help get the most out of the program as a bunch of egomaniacs who like riding heard over boys.

 

But there is much more to working with youth than that.

[Lisabob]

"why would a Scouter disapprove a boy to start an MB? "

 

One possible reason: a boy who starts, but never seems to finish, a whole bunch of things. When a boy has 20-30 partials that he's "working on" (only there is no evidence that he really is) then maybe an SM would be doing the boy a favor to question the boy's desire to start yet another one. Might cause the boy to rethink his approach a bit.

 

 

[Eagle732]

I no longer sign a blue card until the Scout and I have a discussion and agreement on who the MBC is going to be. The reasons for this are not because of some desire to control the Scout (Helicopter Scouter) but to make sure the scout gets paired up with a MBC that will work with him. Our DAC does not maintain an up to date MBC list. Many times Scouts will call several MBCs off the district list before they get one to agree to take the scout on. Our troop maintains its own list of MBCs, some within the troop but many are not. We know they are willing to work with our scouts. When we don't have a MBC for a subject I just advise the scout to pick several names off the list since some probably won't be doing merit badges any longer, but for the common MBs we use councilors from our list.

 

I've never really cared about how many partials a scout has, I figure that's his responsibility. I've also never told a scout he's not qualified to take a MB, I've always encouraged them. I think the only restriction I put on my scouts is that we don't allow them to take First Aid MB at summer camp. I've seen the instruction there and find it woefully inadequate. Myself and an ASM are far more qualified to counsel that one so we do it in house once a year. By the time they're done they know their stuff and are CPR certified.

[qwazse]

I have one youth who is working on her venturing Bronze religious award and touches base every month or so as to her progress(who's helping her with what, etc ...) Keep in mind that each bronze award requirement is roughly as time consuming as an elective merit badge -- although the process of getting signed off is nowhere near as formal as the blue card system. It would be a much different award if she came to me saying "Here are affidavits that I did these requirements ... how 'bout some bling?" They may very well be letters from all of the people who I would have had work with her, but I would have been left out of the loop. So much for that "advisor" patch!

 

So I see E732's point. In this day and age a kid can pop you an E-mail so distance doesn't matter. The kid shouldn't be required to shuttle blue cards halfway across the country if there's a responsible adult that can fill in for an SM, but an SM should be kept in the loop. But sometimes you gotta let the water over the dam.

 

When the boy's back from camp, I would saddle the kid with presenting a bunch of material that he learned. Not as punishment, but having earned so many MB's he's probably picked up a few interesting skills that could benefit the rest of the group.

 

If there is no indication that the boy knows the material, that's when you really need to have words with the camp director!

 

[Eagle732]

Well if a boy is going to be halfway across the country he should know before he leaves what MBs he'll be working on and get my signature. But the reality is I'm not going to know who the MBC is going to be anyway, but I should still know what the Scout is doing.

I'm not looking to limit or discourage, just want to know what the policy is. Seems there's lots of differing opinions.

[fred8033]

Oak Tree: "I disagree, though, that the Jamboree Scoutmaster is equivalent to the actual unit leader."

 

Unofficially - Agreed - NOT EQUIVALENT because the Jamboree leader doesn't know the multi-year history of the scout. But is that really needed to sign a blue card?

 

Official per BSA - EQUIVALENT. I looked a few years ago and ... if I remember right ... Jamboree scouts are dually registered in his home unit and his Jamboree unit. So while participating in Jamboree related events, the jamboree SM is the real unit leader. Same with some scout camps where staff members get dually registered as "crew" members. Hopefully, unit leaders can work together in those situations.

 

...

 

Trek leaders and camp staff leaders are not "officially" allowed to approve, but why sweat it? The trek leader is the one responsible for that scout at that time and will be on-hand to deal with flu, broken bones, dehydration ... and emergency blue card signatures. In your case, the camp director / ranger had responsibility for the scout. Yeah it's different in that it's employment. But the youth still is housed and fed there. I do view that as accepting some responsibility for the youth for months at a time. Often they get to know the scout better than the home unit leaders.

 

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I have seen where the signature is important. 2nd year Webelos were done with the Webelos program and wanted to start working on MBs when visiting the troop. Their future scoutmaster was able to catch it and explain the situation.

 

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Eagle732 wrote: "Well if a boy is going to be halfway across the country he should know before he leaves what MBs he'll be working on ..."

 

Really? We've camped at state parks and met up with other troops working on MB. If invited, should our scouts turn down a chance to work on a MB just because our scoutmaster isn't there and we can't reach him on the phone?

 

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Eagle732 wrote: "Seems there's lots of differing opinions. "

 

That's because we're dealing with registered scouters who didn't follow the BSA procedure. Most procedures focus on the planned "GO" path. It's hard to document how to handle every screw up. Though this is a pretty common MB screw up.

 

Strictly speaking, the counselor should have told the scout to first get his SM approval and signature. That's the documented process. Until then, he doesn't know if he's teaching a qualified (registered boy scout) scout. He and the youth could be wasting their time was the youth might not be registered or might be a cub scout or girl scout.

 

BUT ... I've never seen a MB counselor wait for the unit leader signature. At summer camp, scouts routinely sit through MB sessions and the counselor says at the end ... "Don't forget to bring me a blue card tomorrow." or even just gives the scout a new blue card and ignores the signature part. That's pretty common.

 

IMHO the BSA rule to apply is where BSA says that we are not to penalize the scout for leader mistakes and in other places to not be overly legalistic with advancement. (new eagle process GTA documentation for example.)

 

So the camp director said the cards are signed by registered MB counselors. So either the camp director and/or counselors need better training. OR they view this as a legalistic thorn that they don't want to deal with in a summer camp setting and until you can make them "care" your going to deal with a screw up that BSA doesn't address.

[fred8033]

Just reading more what BSA says about scoutmaster approval. GTA does say scouts can have any number of partials, use multiple MBC per badge, no time limit, etc.

 

BUT with approval ... ???? GTA IS CLEAR AS MUD

 

GTA section 7.0.0.2 ... It tries to be explicit with statements such as "Although it is the Scoutmasters responsibility, for example, to see that a counselor is identified from those approved and made available, the Scout may have one in mind with whom he would like to work. He may also want to take advantage of opportunities at merit badge fairs or midways, or at rock-climbing gyms or whitewater rafting trips that provide merit badge instruction. This is acceptable, but the unit leader should still consider the recommendation and approve it if it is appropriate."

 

"This is acceptable" seems to say the scout is allowed to use any counselor he wants. But then it says "but the unit leader should still consider the recommendation and approve ...." So if it's acceptable, why the "but" and talking about still considering the recommendation. Maybe it's a typo and the scout should still consider the scoutmasters recommendation as the SM did the recommending and the scout the requesting. Or, it's the SM who is to allow the scout's choice if valid.

 

I just have no idea. that paragraph is clear as mud. It's almost like it was written by committee and the committee had no conclusive agreement on the answer.

 

...

 

BSA does address it in other ways too

 

GTA page 76 Clause 12 Examination in camps ... seems to give leeway to camps to establish other standards "to give an intensive scouting program" ... not 100% unit leader signature but related but seems to open the door.

 

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GTA page 76 Section 1 Responsibility for Merit Badges, clause 13 ... says the the responsibility lies with the merit badge counselor and DAC. Doesn't really say what the responsibility is, but says it's the MB counselors or DACs.

 

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GTA 7.0.4.6 "Once a registered and approved counselor has passed a Scout on requirements for a merit badge, it cannot be taken away." - ONLY CLEAR STATEMENT ON THE TOPIC - So if a process was violated but the MBC approved the badge, this seems to say it's a done deal. You can't take it away just because the SM did not sign the card.

 

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[Eagle732]

fred, when I said "Well if a boy is going to be halfway across the country he should know before he leaves what MBs he'll be working on" I was referring to this statement by qwazse:

"The kid shouldn't be required to shuttle blue cards halfway across the country if there's a responsible adult that can fill in for an SM, but an SM should be kept in the loop."

 

I made that statement with the assumption that any Scout that's working on MBs half way across the country is at one of the High Adventure bases since we generally don't just send scouts off thousands of mile for any other reason. Now if a scout is going to Philmont he probably knows in advance that he's going to take a few MBs like Backpacking and Hiking. Get the cards signed before you leave. If something comes up while he's there than go for it, I'll sign when he gets back. It's just common sense. We're here to help kids not put road blocks in the way for them to stumble over! I'm not here to limit of restrict boys earning merit badges.

 

In your scenario where one troop meets up with another that's working on a MB then wouldn't the SM or an ASM be there to sign a card? Our policy is no work counts until a BC is signed (with SM approved exceptions).

 

Two years ago I got a call from one of my scouts working at the same camp asking me if he could get some blue cards for a few MBs he wanted to take while there for the summer. I drove to camp and delivered them to him that day.

 

Now your point about scouts being dual registered for Jambo or High Adventure camps is an interesting one. I'd like to hear some other opinions on that.

 

GTA page 76 Clause 12 Examination in camps, I believe refers to having counselors use youth staff to instruct MBs.

 

GTA 7.0.4.6 "Once a registered and approved counselor has passed a Scout on requirements for a merit badge, it cannot be taken away." - ONLY CLEAR STATEMENT ON THE TOPIC - So if a process was violated but the MBC approved the badge, this seems to say it's a done deal. You can't take it away just because the SM did not sign the card."

 

So you're saying that a scout can disregard national, council, district policy (according our DAC) and the unit's policy regarding having approval by the SM prior to beginning a MB and as long as he gets a card signed by the MBC it's good? If I thought it was a DELIBERATE attempt to circumvent policy I would request the unit's AC not submit the MB. And then the scout and I would have a talk.

 

Again, I just want to know what the policy is. It doesn't sound like it very clear and there's a lot of room for interpretation.

 

[Lisabob]

"Now your point about scouts being dual registered for Jambo or High Adventure camps is an interesting one. I'd like to hear some other opinions on that. "

 

When my son attended Jambo 2010, his Jambo SM signed blue cards for the boys. The reality was that there was so much happening at jambo, that most boys were not going to have a fully executable plan in place prior to leaving home. Expecting a boy to get permission from his home-troop SM would not have been reasonable, but the jambo SM was right there on site.

 

I figure, if you don't trust the jambo SM with the minor responsibility of signing blue cards, then that fella probably should not be the jambo SM in the first place and you've got bigger worries to attend to.

[Twocubdad]

I don't think so, Lisa. In the first place, jamboree doesn't use blue cards. There were multi-page carbonless forms (the boys did get the blue sheet). And there is no place on the form for a Scoutmaster's signature whatsoever. There is only one signature on the sheet -- the counselor's. (I'm holding a stack of the forms in my hot little hands now.)

 

And if I'm not mistaken, in 2010 the form were redundant as the MB records were captured in real time on line.

 

I've also review both the 2010 Leader's Guide and Staff Guide. Absolutely nothing on the subject. Only one paragraph in either book which basically says that Scouts will have the opportunity to work on merit badges at jamboree. For some reason the make a big deal of pointing out that boys can work on merit badges at jamboree and finish them at home or they may complete merit badges at jamboree the started at home. Duh.

 

Basically, national jamboree completely ignores the whole issue of a Scoutmaster being involved. I'm sure everyone will draw their own conclusions from that.

 

I will agree with you, Lisa, that it would be difficult for boys to accurately plan the MBs they want to take at jamboree and have blue cards signed in advance.

 

Fred, I still think your're wrong about jamboree SM being the equivalent of a full time SM. I see nothing in the 2010 literature which supports that. If you can find a reference, I'd be interest to see it.

 

And I still think your try to parse the G2A too thinly. Read the whole paragraph and take in all together. I'm going to get yelled at again for pretending to be a college English teacher, but "this is acceptable" doesn't mean "you are required to accept it." Read the whole sentence, including the part you left off: "This is acceptable, but the unit leader should still consider the recommendation and approve it if it is appropriate." In other words, the SM doesn't have to approve this alternate arrangement if he doesn't feel it is approproiate.

 

 

En Loco Scoutmasterius? Can you point to a Scout who advanced through his jamboree troop? Who served on the board of review (since jamboree troops don't have troop committees?) Did the jamboree troop also conduct the Court of Honor?

[Eagle732]

Do scouts sign up for MBs before they go to Jambo or when they get there?

 

So what I'm getting from all this is that Scouts must have approval from their SM except:

 

When they are not with their troop (Jambo, Philmont).

 

When they're working at a scout camp since they're dual registered with a crew during their employment, they have another unit leader they can get the signature from.

 

When an opportunity to earn a MB comes up and it's not convenient to get a signature (last minute opportunity to joining a another troop for a MB class)

 

When a Scout completes a MB and has a signature from the MBC without the knowledge of his SM (can't revoke a MB after signature).

 

I like to keep things simple. My policy will continue to be you need my signature before you start working on a MB unless you've got a REAL good reason why you couldn't. I think that covers it!

 

[Lisabob]

Well twocub I don't know quite what to say because I'm pretty sure my son came home from jambo with a blue card, signed by his jambo SM, for a merit badge that he decided to start while at jambo. Since after jambo he transferred to a troop where the jambo SM is also the SM, it was a moot point. Perhaps I'm mis-remembering something, it has been known to happen once or twice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Oak Tree]

It's possible that the Jambo SM for your troop decided to hand out blue cards even if the Jamboree as a whole did not. I'd love to offer an informed opinion, but no Scout in our entire Jamboree troop did any work on any merit badge.

 

A Jamboree troop has no committee - it should not be possible to do any advancement. In general, how I would handle this, by the book, would be to get a blanket approval from the home Scoutmaster. I kind of figure that if I approve a Scout to attend Jamboree, I'm implicitly approving him to work on any merit badges while he's there.

 

Really, I've never turned down a request from a Scout to work on a merit badge. The only time I can even imagine this coming into play would be if a Scout had started working on a badge with some counselor, and finding that counselor to be a stickler for details, the Scout wanted to shop around to find an easier counselor. In that case I might tell him that he couldn't finish the badge with a different counselor at summer camp.

 

Fred, when it says, "This is acceptable", it means that it is acceptable for the Scout to request a merit badge counselor. The Scoutmaster doesn't have to honor the request, but it's ok if he does.

[shortridge]

Dual registration with a crew is not mandatory for camp staff members. It's common, but not required. So if a Scout is not dual registered, the CD or PD don't have the ability to sign a blue card as the unit leader. Simple.

[SaintCad]

There are really two issues in the OP. First, I don't think it is appropriate for a scout to start any merit badge without consulting the unit leader. In over 99% of the cases, it is really a non-issue but there was a case of a scout spend all of his time earning merit badges and not advancement requirements. The SM felt that given the Camporee setting, it would be more valuable for the Scout to work on First Class Trail skills instead so he denied permission to the scout to work on ANY merit badge during that weekend.

 

As for the actual signing, I think that the unit leader should sign ahead of time but allow the Scout to change (and thus get a new blue card) if the opportunity arises at a camp or Jamboree because let's face it, if a certain merit badge is crtical to get a a specific outing, we have failed in having prepared the Scout.