And so it begins!

[fred8033]

I think there's a confusion between the past and the present. The approval is for a proposal and not the final plan. Whereas the old Eagle process required pretty much everything be known before project approval, now only the proposal is approved. Much can change during the final planning and execution. The project itself might turn out to be much easier than thought.

 

The new GTA says in 9.0.2.13 Evaluating the project after completion

 

"One or the other may determine modifications were so material that the extent of service, or the impact of the project, were insufficient to warrant approval. The candidate may be requested to do more work or even start over with another project."

 

An eagle project proposal might have looked great during initial approval. If somehow through learning or thru the method of doing the work, the project got much easier or the benefit to the non-profit became less, the EBOR has the right to reject the project. I'm not saying that's good. But it can happen. And probably more so now that proposals are approved instead of final plans being approved.

 

Another GTA relevant section is 9.0.2.7 Proposal must be approved ... before you start

"Because it is virtually impossible to forecast every contingency, candidates must be allowed a level of flexibility in carrying out proposals and planning action steps. But essential elements of a proposal should not be changed without good reason. If this must occur, the Scout should consult his project coach or unit leader for advice. It is appropriate to strongly suggest he share substantive changes with the project beneficiary, and also with those involved in preapprovals.

 

"If it appears changes will cause results to fall below what is required, then cautionary advice is in order. Except under extreme circumstances, it is not acceptable for unit, or council or district, approval to be withdrawn. If the young man decides to strike out on his own, this is his prerogative. At some point, responsibility must take over. The board of review decides whether planning was sufficient and if the requirement was met."

 

....

 

So even though it should be very very rare, EBORs can reject projects for

 

- Insufficient benefit to beneficiary

- Insufficient demonstration of leadership

- Insufficient planning

 

....

 

Given my experiences with the past Eagle processes, I'm very thankful for the new GTA and the updated Eagle project workbook. With a few significant exceptions, I really like the new BSA publications.

 

I'm just saying that an approved proposal with a successful project does NOT guarantee a successful EBOR. I probably does, but it's not a slam dunk.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[Beavah]

Yah, I think fred8033 has the right of this.

 

This is a new process, folks. It very definitely shifts the burden of decision making from the pre-project approval to the Eagle Board of Review. That's a change for most of us who used to feel that we should be thorough in the pre-project review so that the boy would know for sure that it would pass muster at his EBOR.

 

That is no longer the case.

 

Pre-project reviews in that level of detail have been deprecated. Like fred8033, I'm all in favor of the change. I think da pre-project review process in most places had gotten out of hand. More to the point, it was fundamentally different from anything the boy had been doing in Scouting. An Eagle project should proceed along the same lines as a lad's other scouting leadership experience, eh? Yeh come up with an idea, the PLC and the Troop Committee approve the basic plan, and then yeh go to it.

 

That means, however, that approval of the basic plan is not sufficient to ensure that the project will pass muster at an EBOR. Just like the Troop Committee approving the annual calendar doesn't mean that the Klondike is goin' to fly when it comes time.

 

We all have to readjust our way of thinkin' about this stuff.

 

Beavah

 

[JMHawkins]

That means, however, that approval of the basic plan is not sufficient to ensure that the project will pass muster at an EBOR

 

Hmm, this is perilously close to what, at my old company, we used to call "playing fetch a rock." The Boss told you to fetch a rock, then when you brought one back, he'd say "No, not that one. Fetch a different rock."

 

If you asked what sort of rock he wanted, he'd say "You're a professional, you should be able to figure that out." He might give some hints here and there, but would never officially tell you want he wanted.

 

Of course, he wasn't telling you to fetch a rock, he was telling you to come up with a proposal.

 

It was a symptom of dysfunctional management where the boss delegated responsibility without delegating authority (NOTE: that's a bad thing). Basically, he'd keep saying "no" and send you back to redo your plan until you came up - officially on your own - with what he wanted. But since it was "your" plan and not his, if it didn't work, he could still blame you for it.

 

Seems like a bad idea to "pre-approve" a project that might not meet muster when it's done.

 

[edited to correct a typo](This message has been edited by JMHawkins)

[Eagle732]

We still do a Pre-Project / Final Write-up review, signatures are required, all within the new policy as I read it.(This message has been edited by Eagle732)

[fred8033]

Eagle732... What's this pre project final write up with signatures? It is not in the bsa eagle workbook.

[Eagle92]

I admit I have not read the new service project workbook. But if they have taken out the district level pre approval, then I do have some MAJOR concerns based upon expereince.

 

As I saw it, the district pre-approval was to insure that the proposed project would meet requirements. It was a chance for the scout to discuss the project and receive positive feedback on the proposal so that when he went in front of the EBOR, there would be no surprises in regards to the project.

 

And trust me, I DID have a surprise at my EBOR in regards to my project. I followed all the procedures, i.e. wrote up the proposal, got all the approvals, executed the project as was written, etc as a 14yo Life Scout. Four years later when I come back into the room after the EBOR discussed me amongst themselves, I received the shock of my life: the DAC asked what if they told me I didn't earn Eagle because of my project.

 

Needless to say I was angry, and that really is too mild a word. When i asked what was the problem with the project I did, I was told that the current DAC didn't approve it and he didn't feel it met the criteria. When I explained to him in no uncertain terms that A) the project WAS approved by the then current DAC, who happened to be sitting next to him at my EBOR, B) the project WAS completed as written in the proposal, and C) if he did NOT approve my Eagle, then who would I go to to appeal to since I did meet the requirements and had earned my Eagle properly. After being asked to leave a second time, I got my Eagle.

 

I really believe that if there is no preapproval, then a Scout may face a situation like the one I had. And since I had turned 18, there was no way possible for me to correct the project, even if I did do it wrong, whci I didn't.

 

As you can tell, I beleive that is there is no district pre-approval to the project, it may open up a can of worms.

[Gunny2862]

We had had People in the Council who were more than happy to recommend changes/additions/deletions to Eagle projects at the District and Council level to ensure a Boys plan was going to meet muster before the new change - and when it came out they formalized it with the same people doing the DEPC positions.

 

But as JMHawkins notes:

"That means, however, that approval of the basic plan is not sufficient to ensure that the project will pass muster at an EBOR

 

Hmm, this is perilously close to what, at my old company, we used to call "playing fetch a rock." The Boss told you to fetch a rock, then when you brought one back, he'd say "No, not that one. Fetch a different rock."

 

If you asked what sort of rock he wanted, he'd say "You're a professional, you should be able to figure that out." He might give some hints here and there, but would never officially tell you want he wanted.

 

Of course, he wasn't telling you to fetch a rock, he was telling you to come up with a proposal.

 

It was a symptom of dysfunctional management where the boss delegated responsibility without delegating authority (NOTE: that's a bad thing). Basically, he'd keep saying "no" and send you back to redo your plan until you came up - officially on your own - with what he wanted. But since it was "your" plan and not his, if it didn't work, he could still blame you for it.

 

Seems like a bad idea to "pre-approve" a project that might not meet muster when it's done."

 

I find it an incredibly bad idea that we get several levels of pre-approvals, and the project can be nixed not by an observer on the day of the event for failing to meet it's criteria or for observed lack of leadership displayed, but literally years later by a board that wasn't perhaps even in Scouting at all at the time... This means that an observers sign off, on the ground, at the time of the project stating that the project was completed according to the plan and the requisite leadership requirements were observed - IS WORTHLESS!? And that we are then delegating, power over that to the EBOR?

If an EBOR denies an award it shouldn't be over the quality or scope of an Eagle Project - it should be over something the program is about!

(Character anyone?) And there's no way a follow on observer reading the write up can make those judgments as well as the observer on the ground who saw the project being done.

 

If the Scout proposes it, gets pre-approvals, does it, shows leadership in doing so(in the opinion of a Scouting Observer (SM, CC, AC?), gets a completion sign-off by the SM(indicating that leadership was displayed) and it's accepted by the DAC(which, IMHO shouldn't be an obstacle either) then literally months or years later another group of folks can deny based on this??? Ridiculous! Another criteria, like failure to meet some other Standard, sure. But based on a Project that was planned, pre-approved by the adults, post approved by adults and then later, another group says "No", it's crazy.

[Twocubdad]

E92 -- you handled the bozos exactly right. They didn't have a leg to stand on and knew it. I wonder what would have happened if you had just hung your head and mumbled something about learning from your mistakes.... Unfortunately, most kids in those situations have been so well-trained to defer to adults they won't stand up for themselves. I suppose that's why the new workbook and G2A is so explicit with the rights and expectations for Scouts and parents.

 

I'm not sure if I'm totally understanding you, but be clear that their IS a pre-approval by the district/council for projects. The difference now is the projects are approved at the conceptual level, not in the obscene amount of detail which many councils required in the past (mine included). The challenge to the review committees is to get enough detail to understand the scope of the project so their conceptual approval sticks and is confirmed by the EBOR. "I'm going to do something to improve a park" shouldn't be approved. "I'm going to build five picnic tables for Smith Park" should (assuming the cmte agrees five tables is a sufficient project -- I would). At the end of the day, if the kid builds five tables, there should be no question. Unlike your BOR, they don't get to second-guess and say you should have built six. Unless the Scout totally goes off reservation and builds only one bench or there were something grossly wrong with the leadership or process (like his dad hired somebody to build the tables) it will be very difficult for an EBOR to decline a project and have that sustained on appeal.

 

JMH -- difference between an Eagle project and your "Fetch the Rock" game is with the Eagle project, the boss/Scoutmaster is available to help you look for the rock if the Scout wants him to.

 

All the angst I see over the new process -- both from those concerned that someone "will get away with something" and those concerned 18-y.o. candidates will be turned down without recourse -- comes from the idea a Scout may now take his conceptually-approved proposal and execute the project with no further input, supervision or approval from the unit or council. That is the Scout's option. But if he does so, he's taking his heart in his own hands with the chance the EBOR will turn him down.

 

I'm telling my Scouts that if they will keep me in the loop, work through the "final plan" section of the work book and take the advice and assistance of the troop, then if their EBOR turns them down, I'll walk through hot coals with them to get it approved.

 

If not, if they want to exercise their option and not work with the troop leaders, then you are correct, they better hope they come back with the right rock.

[Eagle92]

2Cub,

 

Actually it wasn't the entire EBOR, just the current DAC who didn't want to approve me becasue HE didn't sign off on my project. BORs need to be unanimous, so one person can hold it up. I remember the troop CC, and the former DAC who signed off on my prject smirking a bit when I told off the DAC about it being a done deal and that I wanted to know who I could appeal it to as I did the project as it was suppose to have been done. And yes I admit I didn't know about any appeals process, I was just an angry young man at that point.

 

Glad to see that approval is in it still. Again didn't read the document.

[AvidSM]

If I am sitting on a EBOR, one of the questions I want answered is: did the candidate do the project that he proposed? If there were changes, what were they?

 

If the candidate successfully completed the project with only minor changes and the unit leader and project beneficiary approved it, then my responsibility is to VERIFY that requirement 5 has been met. At this point, I am not looking to approve or disapprove the scope of the project as being "eagle worthy" - someone else has done that already.

 

I believe going back on that decision would be a disservice to the candidate. I want to see if he planned and developed the project himself and how much leadership he demonstrated. Most importantly I want to know what he learned from the experience.

 

What I get from reading paragraph 9.0.2.13 in the new GTA is that if the candidate changes the project from what he proposed, the Unit Leader or the project beneficiary may choose not to approve it - upon completion. The candidate can ignore this and ask for an EBOR anyway. The EBOR may agree with the unit leader or the project beneficiary and also disapprove of the changes.

 

Their reasoning would be: the project you did was not what you proposed and you changed it to the point where it no longer gives enough leadership to others or is not helpful enough to your community. Or the EBOR may determine that even with the changes, the project still satisfies requirement 5 and the candidate would pass.

 

As I see it, there is a distinction made between the proposal and the subsequent effort. The EBOR should not be looking to un-approve the proposal. If someone of authority approved a bad proposal, then it is not the candidates fault. If its that bad, someone should have caught it way before the EBOR.

 

 

[fred8033]

Eagle92 - Of the EBORs I've been on, it's almost always asked (not by me) ... "what if we told you that you haven't earned Eagle?" It's a very standard question. I hope that's all that happened to you. If you got stuck between old and new DACs with different visions, that was bad.

 

...

 

AvidSM - GTA 9.0.2.13 is part of beneficiary or unit leader not approving it. But it hints at the EBOR also having discretion. GTA section 9.0.2.7 explicitly says the EBOR has discretion. It's to be rare. The EBOR is to focus first on the benefit of the project and then on the leadership and planning. But I really like how the GTA is written ... "virtually impossible to forecast every contingency, candidates must be allowed a level of flexibility ... the Scout should consult his project coach or unit leader for advice. ... cautionary advice is in order ... If the young man decides to strike out on his own, this is his prerogative. At some point, responsibility must take over. The board of review decides whether planning was sufficient and if the requirement was met."

 

It's only dealing with problem cases and they do occur. This section gives the scout the ability to take responsibility. It advises scouters to warn youth. It gives the EBOR authority to challenge problem projects.

 

I think this is generally good. It gives EBOR ground to stand on if they ever need to reject a project or to say no.

[eisely]

I have been our district eagle project approval authority now for about a year. I think people are obsessing over something that is easily overcome.

 

During the last year I had one scout come back with a second project (using the old workbook) when the benefiting organization decided it no longer wanted the original project. No work had yet been done. Same beneficiary, different project, easily approved. The scout was not bitter or angry.

 

Another scout recently called me with about a month to go before his 18th birthday. I don't know what his original project was, but apparently it was a failure, and all were agreed that it was a failure. The benefiting organization would not sign the workbook that the project was completed. I had had no involvement in his first attempt. He came up with a new project that could be quickly executed and I approved it. His new project was processed using the new work book and procedures. No problem.

 

It is easy to see how some scout or family can game the system if they are determined to do so, but they could do that before and they can do that now. Human nature has not changed, just the process.

[Eagle732]

fred8033,

 

After attending the district training for the new Eagle program, reviewing the work book and having a long discussion with my troop's Eagle Advisor (or is he a coach now?) we have worked out this solution which I feel is reasonable, workable and benefits the Scouts. I am not willing to play "fetch the rock" with Scouts over their project. I believe the vast majority of boys want to do the best they can with their projects but I have also had a few try to get by with less than the bare minimum. So with that in mind this is the solution we've come up with for our scouts.

 

The new Eagle workbook pages 1 - 10 is the proposal. The troops CC and SM (me) review the proposal and sign on page 10 if it's acceptable.

 

Pages 11 - 16 is the final write up. On these pages the in depth planning is done, this is where the concern is since the proposal and final plan may vary greatly and no one would know until the EBOR. This is where the next review and approval is required. That comes on page 17, the Fundraising Application. Every Scout in our troop fundraises and/or has materials donated so they need this signed by me. And I'm happy to do it but I need to know exactly what you intend to do with the money so I need to review your work book. They also almost always need a tour permit since they all do projects away from the meeting hall. Again I'm happy to send one off to Council but not until I know exactly what the Scout is going to do. After all I'm responsible for the project being done in a safe manor and in a safe place since it's now part of the unit's program. I will probable visit the location before submitting a TP, just like I do when we camp in a new place. So between these two required signatures I figure I'm going to looking at the project's final write up at least once. The Eagle Coach and I will make recommendations if needed at this point.

 

Finally there's my signature on page 20 stating that the requirement meets Eagle requirement 5. Did the scout do enough to show leadership? I don't sign here until I know we have a project the Scout is proud of and will be approved by the EBOR.

I've got 5 boys working on project proposals now, everyone understands this and is OK with it. We do this to set the boys up for success instead of playing "fetch the rock".

 

It would certainly be easier on me and my Eagle Advisor let the EBOR deal with substandard projects but I'd rather not set the boys up for failure and I'm not willing to let Eagle projects be reduced to a small service project.

 

[JMHawkins]

JMH -- difference between an Eagle project and your "Fetch the Rock" game is with the Eagle project, the boss/Scoutmaster is available to help you look for the rock if the Scout wants him to.

 

No, I wasn't clear enough. The "boss" is whoever has final approval. The SM doesn't have final approval - that's the EBOR. They're the boss. If they can tell the Scout "wrong rock" after he's finished his project, that's a problem. In particular, it's modeling bad management practices. If we're going to sacrifice outdoor adventure for corporate management, we can at least teach good management.

 

 

[Gunny2862]

JMHawkins and Eagle732, Exactly! Ding, Ding, Ding!

 

Why is an EBOR second guessing all of the pre-approvals and the SM sign-off after it's all done. Which is what it should be when the SM gives that page 20 signature, which shouldn't go on until after the benefiting organization signs that it has met their expectations.

What was the point? If that's the way it's going to work the Scouts EBOR members should also be his Eagle project counselors...