scheduling boards of review

[Oak Tree]

Generally speaking, after a Scoutmaster conference the SM and/or the Scout will contact the BoR chair and request a board. We generally offer them two or three weeks a month, during the regular Scout meeting. Sometimes they can happen the same night.

 

We've always had three committee members do it, although we are now open to other parents too. There's a set of people who view it as part of their committee responsibility.

 

We have a one-sheet handout we give them to help "train" them, and usually we have them participate with some more seasoned board members. It doesn't take long to get the hang of it.

 

We have done reviews at summer camp when we had enough committee members there.

 

In general, I think I'd be fine with offering them once a month, but in our case it's easier to do them more frequently.

[Twocubdad]

While I am generally a big fan of the new advancement policies, I would have to label this as another example of national taking a least common denominator approach to policy. I'm sure somewhere, sometime some troop has created a Byzantine process for requesting a Board of Review with the intent of making it difficult for boys to complete their advancement.

 

But this silly rule, which can't possibly apply to more that a fractional percentage of troops, takes away from the vast, vast majority of troops the ability to teach another small lesson in personal responsibility and interpersonal skills.

 

Is it really a burden, is it really adding a requirement, to ask the Scout to make a phone call, send an email or walk across the room and schedule an appointment? Following this logic, calling a Scout forward to be presented his new rank badge is also adding a requirement. No doubt the troop leaders should be required to walk across the room and deliver the badge to the Scout at his seat.

[JMHawkins]

In the exchange between Fred and Eng61, I think there was an interesting topic. Specifically, Eng61 said:

 

"I don't think it is necessary for all the adults in a troop to drop everything and do a BOR right now just because some scout or parent demands it. "

 

I, in fact think it imperative this not be the case... it's a bad lesson to teach that the world revolves around an individual. Most of our politicians have that view.

 

The key word in that quote is, I think, demands. Replace "demand" with "request" and things take on a different characteristic. But Fred and Eng61 both have reasonable worries about teaching the wrong thing. Eng61 is right that dropping everything to accomodate the scout can foster a sense of entitlement that isn't good for him to have. On the other hand, refusing to treat him as an individual and making him just another cog in the bureaucracy to be processed according to rigid rules teaches him another, equally bad, lesson: that it's okay for those in power to be dismissive towards individuals under their thumb. In both extremes, the adult leadership is modeling a style of leadership we don't want to pass on to the scouts.

 

They key thing is the Committee serves the troop, not the other way around. "The Troop" includes the scouts in it and the adults on the Committee (as well as other adults too). Doing things in a way that completely subjugates either one to the other is ultimately wrong.

[perdidochas]

Quayze is on the money. It is how we do things as well. The Scout comes to the Advancement chair (me) and asks for me to record his advancement (the SMC and Scout Spirit, usually) and about the BOR. Then, either I then go to the Committee Chair, and mention that we have a Scout wishing for a BOR, or if I'm busy, I ask the Scout to ask for a BOR. We then schedule it ASAP, sometimes at that time (if we have committee members lollygagging around), but more often the next meeting.

[fred8033]

twocubdad wrote: "Is it really adding a requirement?"

 

Unfortunately, yes. I can fully understand your position. And it might not be that big of an addition for how your troop would do it.

 

BUT... it opens the door to scouters who want to make sure scouts "earn" their rank. Or that want to protect the integrity of their troop advancement. Or that view BSA advancement as too easy. Or that want to hold a higher standard for scouts. AND thus cost scouts advancement when they've already completed per the BSA requirements.

 

I've seen a few such as... #1 Scouts need to fill out an advancement form that includes a statement of life goals and a history of PORs they've held. No form = no BOR. OR ... #2 Scouts need to go to the adult in charge of TroopMaster to get a print out of their advancement records. Review it and get it signed off. Then go to the person in charge of scheduling BORs. OR ... #3 Go to the SMC scheduling person and jump through the following 20 step SMC/BOR process.

 

BORs are to supposed to be simple and easy with the goal to make sure everythings done (administrative really), to encourage advancement and to evaluate troop performance.

 

...

 

Of everything written in this thread so far, my favorite is the example where the scout asks the SM for an SMC. When the SMC is done, the SM walks the scout over to the advancement committee person and says "this fine young man needs a BOR" and then it gets done or gets scheduled to be done. Nice and simple.

[Beavah]

Yah, everything in balance, eh?

 

I agree with fred8033's "nice and simple" example, but then I've seen a lot of other things work just fine. Includin' a few of fred8033's supposed "bad" examples, like helping a boy at Life get some of da experience he's going to need to do a good job on some of the Eagle requirements.

 

Advancement is just one tool, and yeh have to use it in different ways. If yeh have a bunch of lads who feel like they're entitled to adult attention and time and that's showin' in their behavior, then I reckon the proper lesson is to teach them patience and courtesy. On the other hand, if yeh have a bunch of lads who are scared of adults and find it too hard to approach 'em, then yeh reach out and bridge the gap.

 

Mostly, for the upper ranks, I'd expect a lad to be able to do things like make an appointment.

That's no more adding to the requirements than asking him to fill out an Eagle Scout application.

 

If there's anything that's true, it's that when yeh ask an Eagle Scout which badges mean the most to him, they will always be the badges where the counselor was the fellow who made sure the scout really earned the badge, who protected the integrity of da process and held the lad to high standards.

 

Beavah

 

[fred8033]

Beavah wrote: "Advancement is just one tool, and yeh have to use it in different ways. If yeh have a bunch of lads who feel like they're entitled to adult attention and time and that's showin' in their behavior, then I reckon the proper lesson is to teach them patience and courtesy."

 

Agreed. But it's often a lesson that can be taught without establishing formal processes and procedures that penalizes everyone.

[Beavah]

Yep, I'd agree with that, fred8033, at least much of the time.

 

Often enough, though, a unit has had some leadership turnover, had a few years where things got lax, had a big group of new Webelos III parents come in, etc. So it's not a question of an individual, eh? It's a question of tryin' to (re-) establish norms for the group. That's when puttin' in place formal processes and procedures helps. It helps folks learn and adjust and helps the group improve.

 

Then, as a healthy unit culture re-emerges, yeh can let the procedural stuff fade, because the good lessons from it have "taken" and will self-perpetuate for a while. There's no need to get bogged down in the negative aspects of procedure.

 

Until the next time there's turnover, things get lax, a big group of inexperienced folks come in, etc.

 

Beavah

 

[JMHawkins]

Just to relate a story that made me proud of the scouts. The adults established a rank requirement for SPL, and the scouts themselves decided to do the same for PL (just Tenderfoot). We try to schedule BoRs as needed, but committee members have schedules they need to keep too, so a BoR can't always happen at the drop of a hat. Elections were coming up. The SM announced that next week the Committee would be available for BoRs, but that was probably the last opportunity before elections to get a BoR so any scouts who planned on running should get their requirements wrapped up before next week's meeting.

 

Next week came and the Troop was getting ready for the opening flag ceremony. Suddenly one of the guys who wanted to run for PL realized he hadn't gotten his flag ceremony requirement - the last one he needed - done yet and wouldn't be able to finish his rank that night and so wouldn't be able to run for office. He blurted it out, was dissapointed, then cowboyed up and got ready to get on with the opening. One of the other scouts spoke up. "Wait a minute. Is all you need the flag ceremony? Can we lash some poles together and make a flag pole so he can do his ceremony?" he asked the SM. The SM said sure, go see what you guys can figure out, come get me when you're ready. The rest of the troop started the meeting while those two guys improvised a flag ceremony. When they were ready, they conducted it, he got signed off, did his SM conference and got his BoR in time to run for office.

 

So, somewhere in the intersection of expectations and flexibility, one Scout learned about the dangers of procrastination and another Scout stepped up to bail out a friend. The rest of the troop witnessed it. Not sure how deeply it sank into any of them, but I sure was impressed.

 

 

[fred8033]

Beavah wrote: "That's when puttin' in place formal processes and procedures helps. It helps folks learn and adjust and helps the group improve."

 

I can agree with you but tend very strongly away from that fix. The reason is that the new folks start seeing processes and procedures as the normal Boy Scout way. They don't realize it's a troop decision to handle a transition or teach a lesson. As such, those new processes and procedures tend to be permanently installed. My experience is that it's very easy to add a process or procedure. BUT, it's very very difficult to eliminate as others will see the process / procedure as a safety blanket. Not to mention eliminating a process / procedure often takes updating documents and group consensus. At the slightest hickup, adult leaders will recall the process / procedure and add a bit more to it. A good example is a local troop that boasts proudly of their detailed BOR process diagrams and procedures. Yeah they really thought it out and yeah the scouts that survive really grow. But, it just lacks friendly, kind and thoughtful aspect that I associate with scouting.

 

Instead of adding a formal process / procedure, I'd tend instead to discuss with the committee the need to focus on organization and getting things done. Though still trying to support BORs as requested, I'd remind them that it doesn't mean you need to jump and drop everything. Or be just waiting to do a BOR at any moment.

 

There's creative ways to deal with group dynamics that avoid creating processes and procedures.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[artjrk]

As SM, I had a notebook where a scout could sign up for a SMC or just moment to talk to me. That way I could get to each scout in an orderly fashion, usually the same night. If I couldn't get to one due to time constraints then they would be top of the list the next week.

 

The list also included a column for BORs. at the beginning of each meeting I would let the CC know if we would be needing any BORs that night. That would give him time to gather up a board or two if need be. If a BOR couldn't get done one night it usually was done the next week.

 

For younger scouts I would personally make sure the CC had a Board ready. As boys advanced to Star and Life I would at times ask them to go directly to the CC. It let them be more aware of the process and free up some of my time.

 

My favorite SMCs and BORs are the ones done on campouts and at camporees. Getting adults from other units to help sit in always gave the Scout insight to other point of views about scouting and see toe larger picture.

 

 

[Beavah]

The reason is that the new folks start seeing processes and procedures as the normal Boy Scout way. They don't realize it's a troop decision to handle a transition or teach a lesson. As such, those new processes and procedures tend to be permanently installed.

 

I agree with that, to a point. I'm a strong advocate for not goin' the G2SS route and establishing a set of rules for everything, or opting for a procedural response as a result of incidents rather than trends. Incidents yeh respond to as incidents much of the time, addressin' just the individuals or particulars.

 

However, I think you're makin' three mistakes. One is believing that every unit leader has the same style and interpersonal skill set that you might have. Yep, some unit leaders have a skill set and communication style that's able to pull off "creative" group dynamic solutions. I prefer that myself. But yeh don't have to visit too many units before yeh realize that not everybody is that good at it. Others like artjrk like the consistency and order of havin' a simple notebook procedure. That's not so bad, is it?

 

The second is believing that others will always respond appropriately to that sort of interpersonal approach. Generally speakin' it only works when there's the sort of person Eagledad talks about - the long-time, well-respected person in the unit who is alpha-dog "keeper of the vision". Someone who has a lot of social capital with the group. I expect that you fill that role in your troop. But again, when units are in da stormin' and rebuildin' phase, that person usually hasn't emerged yet, so there's nobody who has the social capital to be able to pull off many of the "creative" solutions.

 

The third is assumin' that other units are as monoculture as yours might be. That's not a bad thing, mind. Most good troops are pretty monoculture - draw from the same neighborhood, attract the same sort of folks at crossover. Makes it easier for sure, but isn't always the case.

 

Systems of law and procedure are what we fall back on when da conflicts can't be resolved through more ordinary processes. They're also a way of communicatin' norms and expectations in contentious or diverse environments. When a group norm is already well established, yeh can make exceptions out of compassion, eh? And yeh should. Artjrk can handle a lad who forgets to sign up in da notebook and comes to him mid-meeting. But when a group norm is not yet well established, da compassionate thing to do for everyone in the group is to stick to the norm. Artjrk says "Yeh have to sign up in the notebook."

 

I always tell folks that most groups can accept about 15% deviation. A patrol can handle one, at most two kids who are behavioral outliers. More than that and things start fallin' apart. A group can handle makin' exceptions for maybe one out of eight of the cases. More than that and da exception starts becoming expected, or people feel you're playin' favorites, and things start fallin' apart. So if yeh only have a few lads who are pushin' the envelope on demanding adults be there at their beck and call, yeh can deal with it individually. More than that, though, and yeh either have to fall back on procedure or the alpha dog has to "creatively" lay down the law. Either works, and both have downsides. Procedure can outlast its usefulness, that's true, but relyin' on the alpha dog makes for really rough transitions and can cause some folks to withdraw (or revolt) along the way.

 

All things in balance.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Beavah]

My favorite SMCs and BORs are the ones done on campouts and at camporees. Getting adults from other units to help sit in always gave the Scout insight to other point of views about scouting and see toe larger picture.

 

No doubt someone will jump in and tell yeh that it's against da rules and procedures (only committee members or parents on BORs), or that yeh need to have a formal setting or whatnot.

 

I agree with yeh, though. BORs in the field, 'round the campfire or over hot cocoa, dressed for the weather not for show... those have always felt the best and most natural to me. And to the boys, I think.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92]

Beav,

 

I believe, stress believe, that G2A does have provisions for non-committee members to sit on the BORs. But even if it didn't, if using leaders frmt he district is appropriate for an EBOR, why not others IF that is the only way to get a BOR done?

 

I know of a unit that had some serious leader challenges and a young scout waited some time, I think 2 months, before he finally had a BOR. It was at district camporee, and folks on the Dis. Committee sat on the BOR.

 

One of the best BORs I ever sat on

[Gunny2862]

For us, when the Scout is ready for or wants a SM conference they ask for one, in almost every instance unless they waited until I am literally picking up my last things and starting to turn out the lights after a regular meeting, I give them one right there. Same thing for campouts - I 'll do a SMC just about anywhere, or anytime(did one walking on a Trail at Philmont - he had to wait for his BOR). If I truly can't do it right then, then I ask them if they are free during the week and can we set an appropriate time and place, otherwise they get to wait a week.

 

The BOR is handled pretty much the same way by our CC, but usually the SM conference ends with "Now go straight over there and ask "name" the CC for an appointment for a BOR" now that may be a technical violation, but if the kid is very young, very shy or has some disability that we are working with, that would make that I problem I may go with him and do it for/with him, so it's not like we're using it to slow anybody down or weed anybody out. It's not that I couldn't walk over and schedule it for the Scout, but that the Scout sometimes wants to do it next week and while we DO want him moving thru the process we don't want to run the process over him either, plus it sets him up for what he has to do later when he starts working for his Eagle or any other large project Hornaday, etc...

In almost every case where enough adults are available, the BOR happens right then as soon as the CC is asked for one, if the SMC happens early enough the CC might even call in an adult if there aren't enough there right then, but otherwise they'll generally get it the next week.

For our AC we stress as we recruit that we want to recognize, reward and reinforce what we want(in this case advancement)(but that if we are going by the Scout Office any of the Adults will get the desired items so it's not completely on the AC) and that the best way we see to do it is that as soon as the Scouts walk out of the BOR - passed, we recognize them right then with at least a proclamation, we get the Award set ASAP and try to get the Patch to them at the next meeting as an immediate reward, and then reinforce with the Mother's pin and Advancement card at the next CoH.

 

So I guess our bottom line is that at this time serving 30-40 Scouts we aren't so large that we have to have those processes in place, but I can easily see how a larger Troop, especially an adult understaffed one, could easily run into serious issues without a framework in place.