Time Extensions for Eagle

[Eagle92]

Ok I reviewed the new GTA on the appeal and time extension processes. Not worried too much about the appeal as the Scouter did not complete his project so we are not at that stage yet. But I am curious to know what other folks' experiences with seeking time extensions has been.

 

Long story short, the scouter, he's still registered, just turned 18 about a few days ago. His original project was completely messed up, he admitted it was his fault and began the process with a new project and beneficiary with about 1.5 - 2 months to go before turning 18. So there was time for him to do another project. He did the research, secured the unit and beneficiary approval, etc,

 

Well the EBOR ate up some time since they only meet once a month. Then they denied the project because it did not have 100 hours to be a substantial project, which as we all know is against the rules. Another week or so was spent with bickering between the unit leaders and the district EBOR that culminated with a very heated discussion at RT. The council is now involved, but he turned 18 and still is in limbo with the project.

 

More later.

[moosetracker]

From what I know the extension should be done BEFORE he turns 18, not after.. It is also better to have reasons beyond the control of the scout.. Since he messed up his first project, that may not help his case.. Even with the EBOR meeting once a month, from what your saying he went to an EBOR was rejected and then there has been weeks of squabbling, not a year of squabbling.. Still only sounds like he got to the board about a month before he turned 18, not a year or 6 months before he turned 18..

 

Again HE should have known and planned on the EBOR meeting only once a month (especially since it is not his first time around the block). He should have been ready earlier..

 

Then if the time started running out for bickering, it should have been foreseen that it was eatting up his time to do the project.. The extention should have been sought before he turned 18..

 

Currently bickering or not, he has turned 18, and never bothered to file for an extension as he started to see that the problem was making it hard to impossible to complete the project..

 

My personal opinion is that this extention will be hard to get at this time. Even if you have proof that the EBOR was a bunch of fruitcups.. Because there is also proof that this scout was not paying attention to his time frame, and in so doing reached 18.

 

My husband has been involved in a few extensions.. two were granted due to physical problems with the boys.. One was rejected because the boy did not manage his time well. Final approval must come from National, but the District EB had some say in it. I do not know if it was just a recommendation, or if they could choose to send it to Texas or not.. But I do know these extentions starts with a discussion by them. Sounds like the people on this Eagle Board will not be favorable to the extension.

[Papadaddy]

If the EBOR rejected the Eagle because his project was

[ScoutNut]

I am a bit confused.

 

Did the Scout complete his project (and all other Eagle requirements), and then get shot down by the EBOR for the project not having enough hours?

 

Or

 

Did the Scout only do research for his project, and get his plan approved, but not actually finish the project itself?

 

If the first, this is not an extension issue. This is an appeal issue based on the council changing requirements.

 

If the second, how did the Scout get to an EBOR without having a completed project? If there was no completed project, and he is now over 18, I doubt that the excuse of not being able to get council project approval in time to complete the project before his 18 b-day would be enough to get an extension. However, if he really wants to try he should go for it. Extensions are granted by National, not the local council.

[Eagle92]

Moose,

 

Thanks Moose. The gentlemen did know about the once a month EBOR meeting, and planed accordingly. He had about 2-3 weeks to come up with a new project, secure the permissions needed prior to the EBOR's, locate potential supply sources, etc. In fact he was prepared to start the actual project within days of approval. I would say the kid really learned his lesson, but he's an adult now . He definately learned from the expereince and he has grown by leaps and bounds since this.

 

A few clarifications from original info presented.

 

1) The EBOR would not approve the project b/c it would not take 100 hours or more to complete in their opinion. Again this is against BSA policy as there are no time requirements, and that is what caused the unit leaders and others to complain about the EBOR adding requirements. The gentleman planned on completing the project over the Christmas Break when everyone is out of school and on the weekends before his birthday. Personally I think he timed the project very well if the EBOR would have approved it prior to Christmas.

 

2) The council was notified by the youth (at the time), his mother, unit leaders, and a few others prior to turning 18. The GTA didn't specify who could allow the time extension, so I thought a council had the authority to give the extension. If it has to go to national, that explains the delay.

 

Some additional information:

 

3) The current EBOR has a history of causing problems by not following policy. There have been several appeals in the past b/c of them not following policy, and they are adamant on doing things their way apparently.

 

At one time they were no longer part of the EBOR as a previous Advancement Chairman replaced them b/c they were not following the rules. However the current Adv Chair reinstated them when we had no DE. At the last roundtable part of the "discussion" was how they "recommend" 100 hours because parents (and why should they be involved) keep asking them how long the project should be, how SMs "must" be in attendance at the EBOR to introduce the Life Scout to the EBOR, and how "it is in the book that the unit committee should review the Life Scout before they go to the EBOR."

 

4)Others outside of the Scouter's unit have gotten involved, and are there are threats to get others involved. One of the former EBOR members, who moved out of district, got involved on the gentleman's side, and there is some stong animosity between the current EBOR members that he briefly replaced and the former EBOR member who is an advocate for the Scouter. That explains part of the bickering.

 

Also the mother has mentioned to the unit leaders and former EBOR member that she wants to get the NAACP involved since she is seeing this as a case of discrimination. While I do not beleive that is the case, I think they would have rejected the project from anyone b/c they do not at least 100 hours will be involvedinvolved, unfortunately the area does have a history of discrimination.

 

What I find intersting is one of the scouts in my old troop did the exact same project, and talking to another scouter, the project was also done by one of his friends.

 

[click23]

In my district we had a situation involving a scout who's project involved building a low ropes course at his high school. All of the other Eagle requirements had been met. Everything was approved, but the school system dictated that only the local utility board could install the poles. He even had this work out with the UB, but when it came time to install them he kept getting the run around, and this went on for months. He was able to finish his project, but did get UB help until after his 18th birthday. An extension was granted by national, and the young man received his eagle.

 

In your situation the G2A states in section 8.0.3.1 "1. An Eagle Scout board of review may occur, without special approval, within three months after the 18th birthday" So even though his EBOR was after his 18th birthday, as long as it was not 3 months past the date, then there should be no issue

 

Since the reason he was turned down at the EBOR was invalid he should appeal their decision per the instructions listed in the G2A section 8.0.4.1 per 9.0.2.1 "No unit, district, council, or individual shall place any requirement or other arbitrary standard on the number of hours spent on a project"

 

He should win his appeal and be awarded his eagle, as the appeal is not another EBOR , 8.0.4.1 "8. An appeal board is not another board of review. It focuses only on the issues that brought about rejection at the lower level(s). A majority is sufficient for a decision."

 

 

[Eagle92]

Pappa,

 

That is it exactly. The EBOR would not approve the second project b/c it was under 100 hours.

 

Nut,

 

He was seeking approval to do a second project since the first one was a failure.

 

There are two projects involved. The first one that was approved and turned out to be a mess. It got to the point the the benefitting organization said: NO MORE! and they took over all responsibility. Yes he screwed up, and screwed up royally on the first project. He accepted responibility for the screw up, publically acknowledging it was his fault the project was a failure and was actually thinking of quitting Scouting altogether over it.

 

But a few of us old fogeys who know him mentored him, encouraged him, and told him he still had time to do a second project for his Eagle and not give up. And he came up with a second project for his Eagle since the first one was a failure.

 

In my district the EBOR are the ones that approve the Eagle project once the benefitting organization, SM, and unit committee sign off on it. They meet once a month to do EBORs and approve projects. And they would not approve the second project because it would not be 100 hours long.

[moosetracker]

ScoutNut - sounds like your Eagle Board does not pre-approve Eagle projects, which is causing your confusion.. Mine does and apparently so does Eagle92.

 

Eagle92 - unless those other scouts either got approved when the current EB was not in power, or had some extra tasks that added to their hours. If two scouts did the exact same type of project and were approved by this exact same board, and this scout didn't (and the two scouts are not whatever this kid is that might cause discrimination.).. Well then, the mother might have a case.. Why did the same type of project add up in these Gentlemens heads to 100+ hours for two boys, but not for the third boy?? Inquiring minds want to know.

[NealOnWheels]

The Guide to Advancement allows an extension for "various mistakes or omissions by adults". So if his plan should have been acceptable when he presented it and he had a reasonable amount of time left to complete the project he might have a chance at an extension.

 

Someone must apply for an extension. Don't assume the council is doing it on his behalf. See page 69 in the Guide to Advancement for the application.

 

I don't know how likely it is it would be granted.

[SeattlePioneer]

I had a Scout who received an extension from the council advancement committee.

 

I wrote a letter noting that he had been SPL for the entire period he was a Life Scout. He had done an excellent job as SPL and I suggested he had a choice to make (more or less) of being an excellent SPL or doing his REagle project.

 

That gave him a three month extension which gave him time to complete his Eagle project.

 

The only sour part of that is that he never had his Eagle COH. His father was SM and several times I pushed in the Troop Committee Meeting to schedule the ECOH. The parents always objected that relatives wouldn't be available.

 

That was in 2006. A year or two ago I e-mailed the now adult Scout and offered to have him awarded his Eagle at a district Roundtable or District Committee meeting, but got no reply.

 

I took Wood badge in 1985, but didn't get my beads until about 2008 or so. If someone drops the ball, I see no reason not to pick it up and complete the recognition even years later if its still meaningful for the person.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

 

 

 

 

[fred8033]

Eagle92 wrote: "They meet once a month to do EBORs and approve projects."

 

IMHO ... once a month approval is not showing much support for the scout.

 

Though there may not be a rule against it, IMHO that's just not cool. EBORs once a month ... fine. It should NOT affect eagle rank. BUT approving projects once a month adds headaches and delays for the scout. What if they want changes or won't sign, then it's two months to get a signature.

 

Project approval should not take more than a week ... excluding scout effort and scout time to make corrections. For my son's project, the project was reviewed two days after he called the DAC and approved at that meeting. (I was expecting it to be bounced to make improvements, but it got signed.)

[Eagle92]

Moose,

 

The two other Eagle Scouts di their projects on other councils.

 

NOW,

 

Thanks for the Heads up about page 68 as I didn't get that far into the book.

 

SP,

 

I had a friend who got his Eagle just before he left to join the USAF. 4 years later after he got out, he showed up at a meeting asking if he could have his ECOH. Although he knew only a handful of the scouts present, the older ones of course, EVERYONE knew who he was as he was a legend inthe troop.

 

Fred,

 

I agree with ya. I don't like the way it is set up, but I beleive it is council wide.

[ScoutNut]

We do not use a single, all district EBOR. We also do not have EBOR's do both BOR's and project approval.

 

Council/district approval is done by ONE member of the District Advancement Committee. This is often the same person who is the Scout's Eagle Coach.

 

EBOR's only have to have ONE member of the District Advancement Committee on them. The rest can be members of the unit Committee, and members of the community.

 

Having only one, single, set of individuals who do all project approvals and BOR's would slow the entire process down to a crawl.

 

 

[fred8033]

Eagle92 wrote: "... but I beleive it is council wide. "

 

In our council, every district can be very different.

 

I've been amazed just how different. Our district runs the EBORs at roundtable but a neighboring district has troops schedule the EBORs and only supply a district advancement rep to sit on the EBOR. Others districts schedule them ad-hoc.

 

Even year to year it changes greatly as people change. Before it took a committee approval to approve an project proposal and took months. Now, it's one really knowledgable scouter and he can usually meet with you the same week.

 

I don't think there's a district standard "process" ... even within one council.(This message has been edited by fred8033)

[qwazse]

Our council operates like Scoutnut's, and it's pretty smooth.

 

E92, sounds like you're wading through a mess. When this happens folks will tag you as trying to upset the apple cart. As necessary as that may be, you need to make clear to everyone that you are standing by a fine young man - and the book.

 

That works both ways, point out to scout mom that expert litigators will take attention away from her boy's hard work.

 

Really, the best way to do this is have council staff call National while you and your district advancement chair are in the same room. Everybody will hear how the chips would fall, and take action to get a worthy service project started with a minimum of delays due to paper pushing!